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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:18 am 
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A philosophical question:

Why is Dzogchen the path beyond cause and effect? Aren't the fruits of practice an effect?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 12:36 am 
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its not about creating or changing, but rather discovering what was already always the case: your real nature. Of course, after that you can play in causality all you want for fun and for the sake of all beings.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:39 am 
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Thanks for your response.

I do get the idea that Dzogchen is about discovering one's real nature, but there are still yogic practices undertaken to stabilize resting in that awareness. Wouldn't the fruit of those practices constitute an effect? :thinking:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:49 am 
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I think the idea of the causal path is that one has to cultivate certain qualities, there is a sense of having to construct something.

In Dzogchen there could be said to be certain conditions for knowledge, such as direct introduction, but nothing is constructed as such.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:50 am 
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there is a fundamental difference of perspective between yanas where one "does something to get something" in a fundamental way, and Dzogchen, where there is nothing that needs to be done, since everything is already nothing but the play (empty but clearly arising) of the base (gzhi), has never been anything but, and will never be anything but. This is liberation that no one has ever lost or gained, but simply is the way things are (thusness). Dzogchen practices are like lucid dream practices: you know you are dreaming, but you can still "do stuff" in the dream, especially to help other dream-beings like yourself who still think the dream is real in a concrete sense. So, the only "fruits" of practice, really, are helping others. Once one has been introduced to one's nature (usually by/through the teacher) then the only "fruits" one needs for one's self is bananas to put on granola.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:02 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
there is a fundamental difference of perspective between yanas where one "does something to get something" in a fundamental way, and Dzogchen, where there is nothing that needs to be done, since everything is already nothing but the play (empty but clearly arising) of the base (gzhi), has never been anything but, and will never be anything but. This is liberation that no one has ever lost or gained, but simply is the way things are (thusness). Dzogchen practices are like lucid dream practices: you know you are dreaming, but you can still "do stuff" in the dream, especially to help other dream-beings like yourself who still think the dream is real in a concrete sense. So, the only "fruits" of practice, really, are helping others. Once one has been introduced to one's nature (usually by/through the teacher) then the only "fruits" one needs for one's self is bananas to put on granola.


Wouldn't the rainbow body be the fruit of Dzogchen practice - i.e. a result of diligent practice?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:04 am 
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futerko wrote:
I think the idea of the causal path is that one has to cultivate certain qualities, there is a sense of having to construct something.

In Dzogchen there could be said to be certain conditions for knowledge, such as direct introduction, but nothing is constructed as such.


Thanks for answering.

Isn't one's ability to rest In natural awareness after recognizing it a constructed product of practice?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:05 am 
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Bc you don't practice something to realize rigpa, the enlightened state, it is directly transmitted by the teacher. Cause and effect paths are gradual.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:16 am 
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M.G. wrote:
futerko wrote:
I think the idea of the causal path is that one has to cultivate certain qualities, there is a sense of having to construct something.

In Dzogchen there could be said to be certain conditions for knowledge, such as direct introduction, but nothing is constructed as such.


Thanks for answering.

Isn't one's ability to rest In natural awareness after recognizing it a constructed product of practice?


Developing certainty, familiarity, and integrating with that recognition, which is experiential knowledge, again does not require anything to be constructed.
In some ways it could be described as more of a deconstruction (but not in the Derridean sense).

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:20 am 
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invisiblediamond wrote:
Bc you don't practice something to realize rigpa, the enlightened state, it is directly transmitted by the teacher. Cause and effect paths are gradual.


Sure, but you practice to be able to stabilize one's ability to rest in rigpa.
Honestly, I'd say that's the result of a dzogchen practice; the ability to rest in natural awareness.

Thanks for answering, btw.


Last edited by M.G. on Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:23 am 
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futerko wrote:
M.G. wrote:
futerko wrote:
I think the idea of the causal path is that one has to cultivate certain qualities, there is a sense of having to construct something.

In Dzogchen there could be said to be certain conditions for knowledge, such as direct introduction, but nothing is constructed as such.


Thanks for answering.

Isn't one's ability to rest In natural awareness after recognizing it a constructed product of practice?


Developing certainty, familiarity, and integrating with that recognition, which is experiential knowledge, again does not require anything to be constructed.
In some ways it could be described as more of a deconstruction (but not in the Derridean sense).


It may not require anything to be constructed, but it requires practice, no?
How would it be incorrect to say "Dzogchen practice gradually results in the ability to rest in natural awareness for longer and longer periods of time"?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:28 am 
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M.G. wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
there is a fundamental difference of perspective between yanas where one "does something to get something" in a fundamental way, and Dzogchen, where there is nothing that needs to be done, since everything is already nothing but the play (empty but clearly arising) of the base (gzhi), has never been anything but, and will never be anything but. This is liberation that no one has ever lost or gained, but simply is the way things are (thusness). Dzogchen practices are like lucid dream practices: you know you are dreaming, but you can still "do stuff" in the dream, especially to help other dream-beings like yourself who still think the dream is real in a concrete sense. So, the only "fruits" of practice, really, are helping others. Once one has been introduced to one's nature (usually by/through the teacher) then the only "fruits" one needs for one's self is bananas to put on granola.


Wouldn't the rainbow body be the fruit of Dzogchen practice - i.e. a result of diligent practice?


from the perspective of the base, the rainbow body and the banana are the same. All you can say is that the rainbow body is probably even more fun than eating bananas, and more useful for helping others.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:29 am 
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M.G. wrote:
How would it be incorrect to say "the gradual result of Dzogchen practice is the ability to rest in natural awareness for longer periods of time"?


Because that is also the path, and the path and the result are both related to realizing the nature of the base - so there is no clear causal progression between the base, path, and fruit, unlike in the gradual vehicles.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:30 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
M.G. wrote:
gad rgyangs wrote:
there is a fundamental difference of perspective between yanas where one "does something to get something" in a fundamental way, and Dzogchen, where there is nothing that needs to be done, since everything is already nothing but the play (empty but clearly arising) of the base (gzhi), has never been anything but, and will never be anything but. This is liberation that no one has ever lost or gained, but simply is the way things are (thusness). Dzogchen practices are like lucid dream practices: you know you are dreaming, but you can still "do stuff" in the dream, especially to help other dream-beings like yourself who still think the dream is real in a concrete sense. So, the only "fruits" of practice, really, are helping others. Once one has been introduced to one's nature (usually by/through the teacher) then the only "fruits" one needs for one's self is bananas to put on granola.


Wouldn't the rainbow body be the fruit of Dzogchen practice - i.e. a result of diligent practice?


from the perspective of the base, the rainbow body and the banana are the same. All you can say is that the rainbow body is probably even more fun than eating bananas, and more useful for helping others.


So from a conventional perspective there is a cause and result, but from the perspective of the base there isn't one?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:33 am 
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futerko wrote:
M.G. wrote:
How would it be incorrect to say "the gradual result of Dzogchen practice is the ability to rest in natural awareness for longer periods of time"?


Because that is also the path, and the path and the result are both related to realizing the nature of the base - so there is no clear causal progression between the base, path, and fruit, unlike in the gradual vehicles.


So you're saying there is a result, but the result is the path?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:40 am 
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M.G. wrote:
futerko wrote:
M.G. wrote:
How would it be incorrect to say "the gradual result of Dzogchen practice is the ability to rest in natural awareness for longer periods of time"?


Because that is also the path, and the path and the result are both related to realizing the nature of the base - so there is no clear causal progression between the base, path, and fruit, unlike in the gradual vehicles.


So you're saying there is a result, but the result is the path?


In some ways you could say that the base, path, and fruit are the same. Of course there is a progression in the trivial sense that you need to gain familiarity and stability, but there is no causation as such - the result is not a product of the path.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:42 am 
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M.G. wrote:
So from a conventional perspective there is a cause and result, but from the perspective of the base there isn't one?


cause and result makes perfect sense when you are talking about stuff like: hit your thumb with a hammer (cause), feel pain (result). Problems arise when you try to make things like the nature of reality/ourselves into a "result" and then try to find "causes" to bring it about. I would illustrate by altering slightly an old Zen story:

Monk is meditating.
Teacher asks, "what doing?"
Monk: "meditating to become a buddha"
teacher goes away, comes back with mirror and stone, sits down and starts rubbing stone on mirror.
monk, "what doing?"
teacher, "rubbing to make a mirror"
monk, "its already a mirror"
teacher "duh!"
(hopefully) the monk had an insight.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:45 am 
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M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Bc you don't practice something to realize rigpa, the enlightened state, it is directly transmitted by the teacher. Cause and effect paths are gradual.


Sure, but you practice to be able to stabilize one's ability to rest in rigpa.
Honestly, I'd say that's the result of a dzogchen practice; the ability to rest in natural awareness.

Thanks for answering, btw.

Yes. True. But in any event this is the distinguishing feature why it is called beyond cause and effect.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:46 am 
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In some ways you could say that the base, path, and fruit are the same. Of course there is a progression in the trivial sense that you need to gain familiarity and stability, but there is no causation as such - the result is not a product of the path.[/quote]

Wouldn't the causation (from the practitioner's perspective, anyway) be a) recognition of the state, b) the decision to practice, and c) undertaking practice?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:48 am 
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invisiblediamond wrote:
M.G. wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
Bc you don't practice something to realize rigpa, the enlightened state, it is directly transmitted by the teacher. Cause and effect paths are gradual.


Sure, but you practice to be able to stabilize one's ability to rest in rigpa.
Honestly, I'd say that's the result of a dzogchen practice; the ability to rest in natural awareness.

Thanks for answering, btw.

Yes. True. But in any event this is the distinguishing feature why it is called beyond cause and effect.


Sounds it would be more correct to say "Dzogchen is in some sense beyond cause and effect, and in another sense a progressive path."


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