YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

the great vegetarian debate - Page 87 - Dhamma Wheel

the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:59 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

TheScientist
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 11:39 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheScientist » Sun May 13, 2012 12:08 pm


nobody12345
Posts: 196
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:05 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nobody12345 » Sun May 13, 2012 1:54 pm

I did not read this whole thread because I don't have time.
But on a practical note, I would like to add something for your consideration.
Proper nutrition and supplementation is important if you want to keep up the vegetarian diet and stay healthy so you can keep marching on the path to the liberation.
(As lay people, one of very few advantages we have is we can choose the foods and supplements that we take. The homeless ones cannot do so.)

1. Proper protein intake (must)
You need at least 65 grams (women) to 75 grams (men) of protein from the complete protein source (the ones with 8 essential amino acids).

If you are a vegetarian, you can use dairy product (whey, casein, milk protein), soy, and hemp protein powder to control your complete protein intake to meet the required amount. Dairy product offers the highest bioavailability rate. In other words, its performance is superior than others (only exception is egg white which offers the same highest rate. But since we don't eat egg, I skip egg from this list).

If you are a vegan and don't take dairy product, make sure that you don't rely on Gluten (wheat based protein) which has bioavailability that is very, very low.
I know that Gluten based product are popular but it's not much beneficial to your body.
Juts use soy and hemp based protein strategically.

If the amount of protein you take is much higher than the recommended dosage, then increase the water intake.
If you have weak kidney then add Kidney protection supplement (Cranberry juice extraction capsule. So much cheaper than the juice. Less than 10 dollars a month.).

2. Multi Vitamins and Minerals + Calcium (must)
Calcium intake from multi vitamin and mineral is usually not enough.
Add the extra calcium supplement.
You don't need pricey ones.
Just get the cheapest one and it will still work.

3. Vitamin B Complex (must)
As some of you said, it is difficult for us (vegetarians) to get Vitamin B-12.
Below is the Super Stress B-Complex that I have been using for more than 2 years.
It covers the whole spectrum (B-1, B-2, B-6, B-12, and more).
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SW920/ItemDetail
(No, I don't work for the above company. I am just sharing the info since I believe this is one of the best deals.)

4. Raw Walnut (option but highly recommended)
Someone mentioned dementia/Alzheimer.
Raw walnut is the best and the cheapest protection you can have.
Eat 20~30 grams a day.
Don't take the one that is salted.
Just straight raw ones.

If some of you wonder what would be my qualification to give out the nutritional advices....
I used to bodybuild (from the mid 20s to the mid 30s) and studied nutrition and supplementation along with weight training itself.
I am now 41 y/o and don't bodybuild anymore but I still have knowledge on the subject of nutrition and supplements.
My Masters Degree research project was the developing of community education program for the proper nutrition and supplementation.
So you might consider that there's a possibility that my advice could be a good thing.

jason c
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:41 am

confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby jason c » Mon May 28, 2012 8:23 pm

i've been reading some of david snyders writing on vegetarianism and it makes sense, but i could not find anything on veganism other than a mentioning about vitamen b-12. i am deeply interested in morality as our foundation for practice and what concerns me is that people simply want to find a set of rules to live by, a code of morals and then all their energy goes into concentration and all this talk of jhanas. if the buddha was here today and saw the treatment of cows in the dairy industry there is no way he would agree to the consumption of dairy. i brought this up to an AT at a goenka retreat and i was told, that animals are ignorant and we are to assume that our dairy comes from reputable dairy farmers. but in the kitchen i see no-name brand groceries, some of the cheapest items. now i understand that goenka is teaching to the masses and the principle goal is to teach the dhamma. and for this i have the greatest admiration and respect, i highly reccomend this teaching to anyone who is interested. david's writings said that a buddhist could still be buddhist and eat meat, i agree everyone is at different levels. but all the talks seem to stop at vegetarianism because this is what the buddha taught 2500yrs ago. there is no evolution or progress in this teaching. if the buddha was a layman today he'd be a vegan! :soap: :stirthepot:

respectfully,
jason

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Cittasanto » Mon May 28, 2012 8:41 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
Khalil Bodhi
Posts: 2206
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Mon May 28, 2012 9:09 pm

Hi Jason,

Cittasanto has already made some good points. I, myself, am a vegan but this is a choice I've made for myself and not something that I feel the need to force onto other people. I remember Thanissaro Bhikkhu was once asked whether he thought vegetarianism/veganism was necessary and he replied something to the effect that you certainly aren't making bad kamma if you're not and you may very well be making good kamma through your compassionate intentions by doing so (although everything depends on your intention). I'm not sure if you've heard the story of Devadatta who tried to start a schism in the Sangha by requesting that vegetarianism be made a training rule but either way it goes to show that this dilemma has been around since the time of the Buddha and he didn't feel the need to legislate in favor of one way or the other. I hope this helps you to think through this for yourself. Mettaya. :heart:

Mike
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

Uposatha Observance Club:
My Practice Blog:

jason c
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:41 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby jason c » Mon May 28, 2012 9:58 pm

cittisanto, i will read the great vegetarian debate later this evening thanks for the post. i realise that the buddha was an almsman thats why i phrased the statement the way i did.

khali bodhi, i am not trying to create a schism, i am comfortable in my own practice and have found it a great benifit to live a vegan lifestyle. you can't say the buddha did not care what others did when it came to diet otherwise there would be no rules or guidelines to live by, no precepts. he was all about teaching. he was detatched and new that he had no control over what others did. and he taught in a different way to each individual depending on their ability. my point is still that the teachings of the buddha are dated and need updating.

the monks at the temple where i live sometimes drive a bmw 40 miles to get their noon meal from a family who donates to them, am i the only one who finds this a bit odd? monks driving? is this common? seems like a waste of natural resourses to me. seems like they should go on alms round in the neighborhood spreading the dhamma as apposed to this.


still confused, :rolleye:
jason

User avatar
Khalil Bodhi
Posts: 2206
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:32 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Mon May 28, 2012 11:41 pm

To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

Uposatha Observance Club:
My Practice Blog:

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 28, 2012 11:44 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

jason c
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:41 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby jason c » Mon May 28, 2012 11:46 pm

dear cittisanto and dhamma wheel members,
i read your great vegetarian debate, it made me feel so sad. i don't think there is any point for me to talk of dairy. we are clearly at different places in our practices. honestly, and from my heart you all seem to have much attatchments to break. your eating habits seem very selfish. i think i will leave your discussion group at this time, as this is the only real issue i had confusion about. i wish you all the best of success in your practice. i think my ideas and opinions of morality may be offensive to a great number of you, and i do not wish to cause further pain and suffering. i may be back from time to time as my mind may change, thats what it does.

changing,changing,anicca,anicca
may you all be happy,
jason

User avatar
hanzze_
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby hanzze_ » Tue May 29, 2012 3:57 am

Jason,
maybe that is useful to understand: Take your time and put away prejudice as good as possible.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue May 29, 2012 6:17 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Reductor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Reductor » Tue May 29, 2012 6:31 am

Last edited by Reductor on Tue May 29, 2012 6:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6524
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue May 29, 2012 6:33 am

:goodpost:


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

User avatar
hanzze_
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby hanzze_ » Tue May 29, 2012 6:57 am

Why? Because it is a group orientated hubris?

Reductor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Reductor » Tue May 29, 2012 7:15 am


User avatar
hanzze_
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby hanzze_ » Tue May 29, 2012 7:19 am

Ever thought of all?

There is just a arahant, free from dept out of actions and total worthy for food. Maybe there are some...

Actually that is the reason why we tend to seek alternative ways to lighten our dept. But there is just one... no more need (desire) for food.

Reductor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:52 am
Location: Alberta, Canada

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby Reductor » Tue May 29, 2012 7:40 am


User avatar
hanzze_
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri May 25, 2012 4:30 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby hanzze_ » Tue May 29, 2012 8:15 am


jason c
Posts: 128
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:41 am

Re: confused about dairy right understanding?

Postby jason c » Tue May 29, 2012 1:50 pm

i feel it would be unwise not to finish this discussion or at least reply to those who were kind enough to share their own personal opinions.
cittasanto wrote "i do not care what you eat and you do not know how members eat here" this statement is incorrect, reading parts of the great vegetarian debate members here shared their eating habits publicly, thereby giving me first hand knowledge of their eating habits. and although i don't personally get offended with the eating habits of others(i use to eat meat, maybe i will eat meat in the future.) how can i be offended with people who share the exact same views that i once held? i do however believe that this site was created with the intention of sharing the dhamma(truth) with those who want to hear it. each of us must ask ouselves, is there anger in me? is there hatred in me? is there ignorance in me? if we answer yes to this then it is our job as meditators(human beings) to probe into ourselves, find these roots of anger, hatred,and ignorance and cut them! eradicate them from our core being! having a wonderful website like this where we can share and discuss our deepest rooted questions and concerns is a blessing, and should be used wisely otherwise it becomes a habit, a posession, another attatchment to break in the future. the moderators have a difficult job indeed how to decipher the truth from ignorance and control touchy subjects like our eating habits. but these discussions must remain open always, for any members who wish to discuss or have questions about these issues as it pertains to their own practice.
reductor wrote: don't worry about offending people unless you compell everyone to agree with you. and i'm compiling here: your practice rests safely on another level (higher or superior)
i do worry about offending people, the practice of meditation is the only way to liberation, and i would be doing a great injustice to myself and others if my words and actions led people away from this practice. how can i compell everyone to agree with me, do i have this supreme power, you are each your own masters. also, i simply stated that we are at different places in our practice, to assume to be higher is egoic and is going in the opposite direction of liberation.
i understand this is a theravaden group, this is where the base of my practice lies. but do not hold these pali canon texts to close or you may become attatched. and you will be headed in the opposite direction.
SILA: to abstain from killing any being. do not kill animals and eat them
to abstain from stealing. do not steal baby calves from their mothers
to abstain from sexual misconduct do not keep cows perpetually pregnant for their milk supply it was meant for their babies
to abstain from wrong speech do not lie to yourself about these truths
to abstain from all intoxicants free yourself from these poisonous acts

this is where my personal practice lies, if this angers or upsets you then better you observe those sensations before replying otherwise we can have a chat.
metta
jason


Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine