Causality transformed

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Causality transformed

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:50 pm

Not one that will fit the conventions that you have imposed upon your understanding.
And incidentally, positing an entirely different basis for understanding does not in itself constitute trolling.
Trolling does not simply apply to any view which does not use your linguistic currency.
But as usual when disagreed with, your non dual stance disappears rapidly and you become vexed.. :smile:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:53 pm

oushi wrote:You are not talking about causality, why do you name it this way?

oushi wrote:Causality (also referred to as causation) is the relation between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.-wiki

oushi wrote:How do you differentiate between cause and effect? It's clear that you do not, thus you are not speaking about causality, but rather about one transforming block.

A transforming "block" of everything, that is in continuous change, and full of possibilities. Neither limited to one, or many; no thing, or something. The "block" itself, is also not a separation, it is not a thing.
My understanding of causality fits its meaning. The event equals an effect, that is what causality is. In mathematics, 1+1=2, means (1+1) is the same as (2). Causality is the same math.

oushi wrote:Why would we want to limit anything?

I agree. I am not limiting anything.

oushi wrote:You are forced into a position where you have to convince yourself that there is no separation between you and... a chair. You need to find a way to make all things one, while I am seeing allowing as one. Like a crystal ball covered with colorful textures. I am not one with a chair, but acquiescence for me and for the chair is one. This acquiescence I call Liberation, and where do you have liberation in oneness with all phenomena? In allowing all things are liberated, in causality you present, nothing can be liberated. In both there is nothing to be liberated, but still the difference is huge.


I think I must be missing something. Because this liberation is starting to look to me, a lot like ego. I see the chair and self, as an illusion. An illusion, as a different view or perspective. It exists, and yet doesn't exist.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:58 pm

Aha praeteritum! The series of linguistic sleights of hand are become clear to you.. :rolling:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:07 pm

praeteritum wrote:A transforming "block" of everything, that is in continuous change, and full of possibilities. Neither limited to one, or many; no thing, or something. The "block" itself, is also not a separation, it is not a thing.

You have limited this "block" severely. If you add those characteristics, you will end up with empty set.
praeteritum wrote:I think I must be missing something. Because this liberation is starting to look to me, a lot like ego. I see the chair and self, as an illusion. An illusion, as a different view or perspective. It exists, and yet doesn't exist.

No need for such investigations. You will face a dilemma trying to figure out what "exist" means, then what "meaning" means etc. I've been always a big fan of causality, so I processed it many times. The best you will get is fatalism, which actually isn't as bad as people picture it, but it has nothing to do with liberation.

Simon E. wrote:...

Do you have full understanding of Liberation in terms of Buddhadharma?
As soon an you give an answer, your trolling will become clear. So?
Simon E. wrote:Aha praeteritum! The series of linguistic sleights of hand are become clear to you.. :rolling:

Seriously, you have a problem Simon.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:09 pm

Baseless accusation of trolling ..are trolling.
:smile:
I am informed by a reliable inside source that you were banned from ZFI for exactly that.
For accusing anyone who refused to debate the basic errors within your hypothesis, because it is not possible to do so without replicating them, of trolling.
What you do, and it is apparently the only thing you do, is pose a pov within a closed paradigm and then grow aggressive when that paradigm is challenged.
You have a well rehearsed routine to keep any discussion within the parameters set by yourself and which in fact only result in a circular debate.
You are throwing a loaded dice... :smile:
Last edited by Simon E. on Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:14 pm

Certainly you are not contributing anything to this discussion. I hope you will not succeed in disrupting a very civilized discussion we have created here.
Have a nice day.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:18 pm

And there it is again... :smile:
You are playing a linguistic game to rules that you have devised and which have their own confirmation bias.
If anyone wants to play your game..its a free world.
But lets not pretend it is anything other than a game.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:55 pm

lol

i think oushi has good view and arguments but i think the same way of what simon said.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:02 pm

Simon E.
You seems to be very confused. As far as I know, all participants are here voluntarily. What are you trying to prove? What can you prove... You are only trying to discredit me, while you fail to understand that I am not postulating anything basing on authority. People joined in, because they like the topic and are willing to discuss it. You joined in, because of me. This clearly betrays your intentions.
I really wish you a good day, as it seems that it wasn't so good this far.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:07 pm

sorry to get involved in this.

but oushi, we could ask the same question from you. what are you trying to prove? that you are liberated? that you have the correct view? if you really would you probly would just be quiet and happy about it in your own private space without explaining and talking it to others.

of course it is nice to talk and i learned from you and it is good to have these conversations.

but no reason to get offended by simon, i think he has a valid view and point and is nothing more than just a perspective. not ultimately true or false. not both and not neither. something in between. or something.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:18 pm

If you really want to know why, then I will tell you that debate is another way of contemplating. I can stay with the subject while bringing it into public debate. I see it as very opening and "healthy" approach. Also, I see nothing wrong in keeping the discussion in a dedicated framework. It may look like an achievement, especially when no moderating tools are used. If you, on the other hand, also see me as aggressive then I cannot judge your emotions.

I will gladly discuss any doubts you have toward my approach, like I did before. Just tell me what they are, because I'm really not interested in going into Simon baseless accusations.
Last edited by oushi on Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:22 pm

i see your point of view and i dont have anything against it. its valid for me. its been a good conversation allthough i have not read EVERYTHING but most of it.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:29 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:i see your point of view and i dont have anything against it. its valid for me. its been a good conversation allthough i have not read EVERYTHING but most of it.

That's why I called it civilized, and that is why Simon got irritated. It's not the first time he is trying to prove something... and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he didn't read much of our discussion. Anyway, he expressed his concerns, and hopefully he will not disturb this discussion anymore.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:59 pm

Hello, I'm quite happy with the discussion. But let's suppose just for one moment, that oushi was trolling. How would unconstructive criticism help anybody?
If there is a criminal, how does labeling one as such, and then either ostracizing or locking away, help?
Discussions and explanations are surely a much better way, right?

oushi wrote:I've been always a big fan of causality, so I processed it many times. The best you will get is fatalism, which actually isn't as bad as people picture it, but it has nothing to do with liberation.

This is good. Not many people, even when it's clearly shown, realise that a form of causality leads to no free will. Surprising is when an atheist says there is no evidence to support the existence of God, but still believes in free will.
However, how does "allowance" change anything? I don't know how deep you've been in anything to do about free will, but things popping up from nowhere, does not change a thing. And surely, if "you" are the one allowing, then this is not a Buddhist way, because it requires ego and a self.
One thing about causality, is that it leads to an extinguishing of self, and most certainly ego.

There is possibly something more to causality though, that I'm not quite at a level to fully comprehend. That is, if causality is a dimension.
Not only would that stop the whole going back in time and killing yourself paradox, it allows for the possibility that the universe, is not one thing that is separate, but something else entirely. That something else could have a sort of freedom, and thus through oneness "you" also attain a sort of release.
I want to contemplate this further though - if that is at all possible, it is kind of complicated.

However, I will also continue to think about "allowance." I'm not sure if there is one true path or many, that lead to the same destination, but I think it's good to discuss topics such as this. :)
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:21 pm

I don't think that oushi is trolling praeteritum.
I think he thinks he is a teacher.
An extraordinarily reactive and irascible teacher to be sure... :smile:
But that's what I think he thinks he is ..
He is doing us all a favour.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:20 pm

However, how does "allowance" change anything?

No, allowance does not change anything, it enables change. Big difference! We can take resistance as something opposite to allowance. The goal of resistance is to prevent the change. Aging is change, sickness is change, death is change, so we want to resist change, and it causes suffering. No knowing will stop change. No matter what wisdom you have, it will not turn you into a crystal. That is why change needs to be conquered. With causality you are doomed to stick to the change. That's where those ideas of oneness come from. Because you can stick to oneness by including all the change inside, and although it is changing it may be seen by the mind as ultimately unchanging. Unfortunately our everyday experience is different, and this unity will remain only as an idea. Now look at allowance. It is not something, not some kind of force. It is the basic state which can be covered by grasping, like clouds cover the sky. It's unchanging, ever present, and totally devoid of grasping.

On the clear sky of allowing, thin clouds of uncertainty arise. Then they develop into thick clouds of belief, to finally crystallize into hail of knowing. This knowing is a firm grasp. Knowing = no allowing. All this is reflected in relax and stress.

If things wouldn't be allowed to arise, they wouldn't arise, thus all that arise is free. Mind tries to bind phenomena through suppressing or desiring them. Expectations and idea of control arise. Disappointment, doubt, guilt, worry, care becomes inevitable.

"Dreams and phantoms, flowers in the empty sky; why trouble yourself to seize them?"

Self is not an exception here.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby shel » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:06 am

Simon E. wrote:An extraordinarily reactive and irascible teacher to be sure... :smile:
But that's what I think he thinks he is ..


:tongue: Rather, that's what you fantasize. But maybe if you repeat it enough times others will begin to believe. And then, oh, the possibilities will be unimaginable.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby muni » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:08 pm

oushi wrote:This great acquiescence is not something I would want to abandon or oppose, as it's great love for every single phenomena.


Great love for every single phenomena.

As far as I understand what is meant with unbiased unconditioned love for all, includes the recognition of the nature of all phenomena. That recognition has no subject-object concepts. Even phenomena "all beings" is repeatedly thaught, great love - great compassion is only possible by recognition of how all beings-phenomena appear, together with the recognition how all are. At the same moment, so to say. No opposition of some thing, some view.

Love is not as it is by the conceptual mind. It should be inexpressible is said.

The conventional bodhichitta is to let go self-centeredness, own welfare. It is widening/opening mind-heart (symbolic) and our self grasping loses. It is training the mind in order to become flexible. Like I remember these words: choarcoal turns not into gold. Therefore its importance.

There are many ways. 84000.
Last edited by muni on Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:10 pm

:good:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:04 am

We distinguish ourselves from all, by limiting awareness through ignoring/disallowing. If the remaining opening is pointing to the self, this is being self-centered.
In the stream of all-liberated we pick and reject certain aspects. Rejected are slowly being ignored, accepted remain liberated, allowed. So, through those two opposite reactions, accepting / rejecting, self creates itself, without being anything particular. It exists without being a thing.
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