Guru yoga not Indian?

Moderator: Tibetan Buddhism moderators

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:24 pm

Matylda wrote:Yeah Zhang Zhung... it was the closest. By still it was not Tibet in the sense of history, though they could pick up so much from previous kingdoms. It is just natural, that close nation, ethnically and in terms of language have some mutual exchange and influence... But I meant Tibet proper, not by whom it was influenced.


Zhang Zhung people were Tibetan. Zhang Zhung language is a dialect of Tibetan, and it is still spoken today.


But GY? was it really spread widely and accepted in India? Even in AYT texts? You mentioned only Hevajra, what about other AYT lineages in India?


Yes. Yes. I mentioned two traditions, Hevajra and Vajrayogini. For example, there are three gurusadhanas translated by a Vibhuticandra into Tibetan. Another text entitled
gurumandalasamadana vidhi translated by one of three Dro Lotsawas ('bro lo ts'a ba) which describes a method of practicing the guru, he is invited in front, one makes offerings to him, praises, etc., exactly the way that guru yogas are done in the Tibetan tradition.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10171
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Sherlock » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Matylda wrote:Yeah Zhang Zhung... it was the closest. By still it was not Tibet in the sense of history, though they could pick up so much from previous kingdoms. It is just natural, that close nation, ethnically and in terms of language have some mutual exchange and influence... But I meant Tibet proper, not by whom it was influenced.


Zhang Zhung people were Tibetan. Zhang Zhung language is a dialect of Tibetan, and it is still spoken today.


AFAIK, this isn't what either ChNN or modern scholars say. Both agree that Zhang Zhung was related to Tibet but not quite the same.
vajracakra.com
Sherlock
 
Posts: 716
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Matylda » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes. Yes. I mentioned two traditions, Hevajra and Vajrayogini. For example, there are three gurusadhanas translated by a Vibhuticandra into Tibetan. Another text entitled
gurumandalasamadana vidhi translated by one of three Dro Lotsawas ('bro lo ts'a ba) which describes a method of practicing the guru, he is invited in front, one makes offerings to him, praises, etc., exactly the way that guru yogas are done in the Tibetan tradition.


Yeah this sounds interesting.. I Wonder why GY did not make its way to Japan... I do not know shingon or tendai, though I know many monks and nuns of both tradition, just never asked about it. After all the guru position in both Japanese traditions seems to be very important.
Matylda
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Matylda » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:37 pm

Sherlock wrote:AFAIK, this isn't what either ChNN or modern scholars say. Both agree that Zhang Zhung was related to Tibet but not quite the same.



It is what I had in mind while writting post before...
Matylda
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:47 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:Elaborate Guru Puja is well established in tantric and pauranic Hinduism going back many years. The Guru Gita of the Skandha Purana is a very long song and adoration to the guru visualized as Dattatreya and also as one's personal guru. There is both physical worship with the 16 articles (shodashopacara) and mental worship (manasa puja). There is also the famous Guru Paduka puja-- worshipping the sandals of the guru. It's very difficult for me to believe that the Tibetan "innovation" found its way back to India and had such a profound impact on such a central figure in the Hindu experience. In all of these, the mind of the student is mixed with the mind of the guru visualized in the heart or on the crown of one's head.

While figures like Padmasambhava, Jigten Sumgon, Tsongkhapa, etc. are obviously Tibetan and their sadhanas are specific to the Tibetan context, the general architecture of guru yoga has been intrinsic to the Indian experience of religion for millennia.


Not to mention Guru Purnima sadhana using yantras (in Hindu yantra means drawing mandalas on copper). This is practiced today.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Malcolm » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:10 pm

Sherlock wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Matylda wrote:Yeah Zhang Zhung... it was the closest. By still it was not Tibet in the sense of history, though they could pick up so much from previous kingdoms. It is just natural, that close nation, ethnically and in terms of language have some mutual exchange and influence... But I meant Tibet proper, not by whom it was influenced.


Zhang Zhung people were Tibetan. Zhang Zhung language is a dialect of Tibetan, and it is still spoken today.


AFAIK, this isn't what either ChNN or modern scholars say. Both agree that Zhang Zhung was related to Tibet but not quite the same.


The Zhang Zhung people were one of six tribes of Tibetans.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10171
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Matylda » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:The Zhang Zhung people were one of six tribes of Tibetans.


So does Zhang Zhung tribe still exist today? What did happen to them?
Matylda
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Sherlock » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:00 pm

The modern Jangshung people might be descended from them or a closely related tribe, but if they are, it seems that they are not that closely related to Tibetans.
vajracakra.com
Sherlock
 
Posts: 716
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:05 pm

The Kinnaur people.
invisiblediamond
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Sherlock » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:20 am

I was searching for more info on Buddhaguptanatha and came across a section in PIATS 2000 (page 136) where it is said that Taranatha received a guru yoga teaching from him.
vajracakra.com
Sherlock
 
Posts: 716
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:44 pm

Matylda wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes. Yes. I mentioned two traditions, Hevajra and Vajrayogini. For example, there are three gurusadhanas translated by a Vibhuticandra into Tibetan. Another text entitled
gurumandalasamadana vidhi translated by one of three Dro Lotsawas ('bro lo ts'a ba) which describes a method of practicing the guru, he is invited in front, one makes offerings to him, praises, etc., exactly the way that guru yogas are done in the Tibetan tradition.


Yeah this sounds interesting.. I Wonder why GY did not make its way to Japan... I do not know shingon or tendai, though I know many monks and nuns of both tradition, just never asked about it. After all the guru position in both Japanese traditions seems to be very important.


Guru Yoga comes from Anuttarayoga tantra, which never made its way to Japan.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10171
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby theanarchist » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:38 pm

The spiritual practice of Guru Yoga itself is not about some a text.

I think the question should rather be, were there any vastly complex visualisation exercises around Guru Yoga in ancient India or is that a Tibetan innovation.
theanarchist
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Re: Guru yoga not Indian?

Postby Malcolm » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:33 pm

theanarchist wrote:The spiritual practice of Guru Yoga itself is not about some a text.

I think the question should rather be, were there any vastly complex visualisation exercises around Guru Yoga in ancient India or is that a Tibetan innovation.


The answer to the first question is no, not in any recorded text we have, and the answer to the second is yes, as far as we know.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10171
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Previous

Return to Tibetan Buddhism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexa [Bot], Genduen Phuntsok, Karma Jinpa, Lhasa, qwerty13 and 19 guests

>