Causality transformed

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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:29 pm

Independent Man of The Way is the center of projection, sometimes appearing in teachings as awareness. He is the source, the medium, and the witness of all phenomena. Through liberation they arise in his presence. Whatever is experienced is born from this independence. Whatever you see, hear, feel or think, is already free and this is why you see, hear, feel or perceive it.
What is there to attain? Why trouble oneself grasping after them? Buddha is not something attained through grasping, It's liberation from grasping. If you can see all phenomena as liberated what can bind you?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:31 pm

ah now this comes clear. thankyou this is actually a very good thing in mind when grasping to the thought to be more accomplished on the path.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby muni » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:22 am

The interpretation of words can differ.
Oushi: "If you can see all phenomena as liberated what can bind you"? Unconditioned.

http://www.tibetanclassics.org/html-ass ... entHym.pdf

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Re: Causality transformed

Postby muni » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:32 pm

The above text, a teaching given by HH The Dalai Lama in Nottingham, UK, can use guidance by a Master. :namaste:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 09, 2013 12:58 pm

muni wrote:The interpretation of words can differ.

That's why it is not wise to stick to words. Liberation cannot happen through clinging, even to words of wisdom.
"Not to let go of wisdom is stupidity."
If something doesn't ring a bell anymore, discard it. Until nothing rings a bell anymore. That's what all teachings are about, to undo the grasping for conceptualizations, without annihilating them.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:00 pm

I've been thinking of allowance, but cannot see it as separate from causality, but instead a part of it. I'm finding it difficult to put into words, but allowance is the same as seeing effect.
I've tried to think of a way, to show how cause and effect are not separate.
Imagine a set of children's Lego bricks. If I were to build a flower out of the bricks, I can allow myself to see the flower or the Lego, or both as one and the same.
This is what causality really means, it is the ingredients mixed together that make the broth.
However, disassemble the broth, and you have the ingredients; disassemble the ingredients, and you have various molecules; disassemble the molecules, and you have atoms; disassemble the atoms and we start getting into an area where waves and particles are one and the same. Thus from an illusion of separation, we eventually reach the true form that everything is one.
Cause and effect are just a perspective of the whole; causality is not something that is separate from effect. Cause is the sum of parts, that equal an effect. Equal means the same as.
So you can have the perspective to see water, or to see oxygen and two hydrogen atoms.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby futerko » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:08 pm

praeteritum wrote:Imagine a set of children's Lego bricks. If I were to build a flower out of the bricks, I can allow myself to see the flower or the Lego, or both as one and the same.
This is what causality really means, it is the ingredients mixed together that make the broth.


...or you could see other possible forms of those bricks. The causes here are also the properties of the bricks, the properties of plastic, the designer of the bricks, the licensing and manufacture of them... plastic is itself a by-product of petroleum formed by millions of fossilised organic beings. Then there is your own imagination, your knowledge of what a flower is, etc etc.

where can we locate this thing called "cause"?


edit... the fact that you have opposable thumbs and spectroscopic vision...
Last edited by futerko on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:18 pm

futerko wrote:
praeteritum wrote:...or you could see other possible forms of those bricks. The causes here are also the properties of the bricks, the properties of plastic, the designer of the bricks, the licensing and manufacture of them... plastic is itself a by-product of petroleum formed by millions of fossilised organic beings. Then there is your own imagination, your knowledge of what a flower is, etc etc.

where can we locate this thing called "cause"?


Exactly! That is what cause is, not a thing but an ongoing process.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby futerko » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:21 pm

praeteritum wrote:Exactly! That is what cause is, not a thing but an ongoing process.


Right, but then we ask either; what started that process, or is the process itself merely an effect of our own perspective?

edit... given that we can only ever know the process when we are a part of it, and outside of which we would have no knowledge of it whatsoever.
Last edited by futerko on Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:22 pm

praeteritum wrote:...

Since all phenomena are free, I will allow them to remain free, abandoning the burned of sustaining a view.
Allowance, without grasping after, is undoubtedly available to anyone. If you can see that allowance is indispensable for phenomena to arise, why look for the explanation in tangled concepts of causality? Why bind liberation with awkward explanations? It cannot succeed, by definition.
praeteritum wrote:That is what cause is, not a thing but an ongoing process.

Here, I've exchanged pushing with allowing, which removed all the troublesome stuff.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:56 pm

futerko wrote:Right, but then we ask either; what started that process, or is the process itself merely an effect of our own perspective?

If it is an effect of our own perspective, would that not be a manifestation of ego?
I can't separate self; perspective; effect; and cause; from the whole. I see it as one and the same. However from a language point of view, there are various perspectives; just as there are various views to look upon on the Earth.
As to what started the process/everything; I'm not sure I believe there was a start, but instead various perspectives of the same whole. The perspectives, however are not some thing, that is separate. Instead it is the viewer viewing the viewer.

oushi wrote:Since all phenomena are free, I will allow them to remain free, abandoning the burned of sustaining a view.
Allowance, without grasping after, is undoubtedly available to anyone. If you can see that allowance is indispensable for phenomena to arise, why look for the explanation in tangled concepts of causality? Why bind liberation with awkward explanations? It cannot succeed, by definition.

I don't see it as tangled or awkward. To abandon causality, is to form a new separation in and of itself.
Causality can be seen in everything, and with knowledge of it, new things can be created. Again, words make this seem awkward, not causality itself. Because new things are not separations, but different views of the same whole.
I do think that perhaps we're seeing something similar, in that in the Lego example, you would say you allowed the flower to exist. While I would say, the flower exists (effect.) and the Lego bricks exist (cause.), because of allowance to see it as such. But I don't see them as separate, but just different perspectives, or allowances, of the whole.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:25 pm

praeteritum wrote:Again, words make this seem awkward, not causality itself.

No phenomena possesses a self. There is no such thing as causality itself. It's all made up by words.
praeteritum wrote:in the Lego example

I do not see or look for an answer "in" any phenomena. I do not go and investigate them until I find something in them. I thank the Buddha for emptiness, because it shows directly that lack of intrinsic nature cannot be perceived, so there is nothing to look for.
praeteritum wrote:I do think that perhaps we're seeing something similar,

We were, but there are few golden chains that you still cling to, like:
"Causality can be seen in everything, and with knowledge of it, new things can be created."
Sounds to good to be abandoned. Who would voluntarily give up power to create? Only someone who knows it is nothing but illusion. Phenomena are liberated not by something or someone. In contrary, they are liberated because nothing and no one blocks their arising.
In causality all things would arise from their causes, and you would have to figure out how to liberate them. Since they would be bound by their causes, and no different from then (no chance for separation), liberation would be impossible.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:33 pm

oushi wrote: Phenomena are liberated not by something or someone. In contrary, they are liberated because nothing and no one blocks their arising.


so logically you have to get rid of yourself , or the clinging and grasping and fixating to self and phenomena inside and outside.

causality all things would arise from their causes, and you would have to figure out how to liberate them. Since they would be bound by their causes, and no different from then (no chance for separation), liberation would be impossible.


how come that way liberation would be impossible?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Lindama » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:42 pm

Causality is transformed by recognizing inseparability. Allowing the free movement of the universe (for lack of a better term) implies a dropping of ego, conditioning, and ideas about reality. But, for me, it's full of colors and shapes, just that they are empty of any inherent meaning. We go beyond our enlightenment and may again see causality in a higher octave.

But, I have to add that my cookies are diff from the dough! And a mind that looks for causes is diff one who surfs the river.
Last edited by Lindama on Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:45 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:how come that way liberation would be impossible?

Because effect would always be conditioned by its causes, thus not free. Since effect cannot be separated from its causes, it would remain in this bondage.
KonchokZoepa wrote:so logically you have to get rid of yourself , or the clinging and grasping and fixating to self and phenomena inside and outside.

If self arises then it is already liberated, no need to get rid of it, grasp or fixate on it. If it does not arise, then there is nothing to get rid of, or grasp after. This way you are always free from it. Just rest.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby futerko » Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:50 pm

My cookies! So that's how it is eh? :tongue:
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:44 pm

Lindama wrote:Causality is transformed by recognizing inseparability. Allowing the free movement of the universe (for lack of a better term) implies a dropping of ego, conditioning, and ideas about reality. But, for me, it's full of colors and shapes, just that they are empty of any inherent meaning.

This is it! Thank you. :)

oushi wrote:
praeteritum wrote:Again, words make this seem awkward, not causality itself.

No phenomena possesses a self. There is no such thing as causality itself. It's all made up by words.

True, and that was not what I was trying to say. English language is full of terms like itself, self, me, you, I, it, etc. It's very difficult to construct sentences that don't contain such.

oushi wrote:I do not see or look for an answer "in" any phenomena. I do not go and investigate them until I find something in them.

I'm saying that causality is not a separation. I don't look for an answer either. If you allow the flower to exist, you are separating the flower from everything else. I am showing that the flower is not separate.

oushi wrote:We were, but there are few golden chains that you still cling to, like:
"Causality can be seen in everything, and with knowledge of it, new things can be created."
Sounds to good to be abandoned. Who would voluntarily give up power to create? Only someone who knows it is nothing but illusion. Phenomena are liberated not by something or someone. In contrary, they are liberated because nothing and no one blocks their arising.


But it's not that sort of creation, it instead is more in align with "allowing." Nothing to do with power, because there is no separation from the "creator" and the "creation."
Thus creator and creation cease to exist, but avoiding the dualistic nature of "is" and "is not."
However, "what" is liberated? Saying no one blocks their arising, is saying there is a separation. There's not a separation, and there are no things to be liberated.

oushi wrote:In causality all things would arise from their causes, and you would have to figure out how to liberate them. Since they would be bound by their causes, and no different from then (no chance for separation), liberation would be impossible.


There is no separation. Cause is not separate from effect, or things, or anything. If you were to just "allow," then there "is" and there "is not."
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:16 pm

You are not talking about causality, why do you name it this way?
praeteritum wrote:Thus creator and creation cease to exist, but avoiding the dualistic nature of "is" and "is not."

Why would we want to limit anything?
praeteritum wrote:Saying no one blocks their arising, is saying there is a separation. There's not a separation, and there are no things to be liberated.

You are forced into a position where you have to convince yourself that there is no separation between you and... a chair. You need to find a way to make all things one, while I am seeing allowing as one. Like a crystal ball covered with colorful textures. I am not one with a chair, but acquiescence for me and for the chair is one. This acquiescence I call Liberation, and where do you have liberation in oneness with all phenomena? In allowing all things are liberated, in causality you present, nothing can be liberated. In both there is nothing to be liberated, but still the difference is huge.
praeteritum wrote:Cause is not separate from effect

How do you differentiate between cause and effect? It's clear that you do not, thus you are not speaking about causality, but rather about one transforming block.

Causality (also referred to as causation) is the relation between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is understood as a consequence of the first.-wiki

What you are trying to do is to pack benefits seen in causality with benefits of unification, not seeing that one is strangling the other.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Simon E. » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:34 pm

Ah yes.
As I ( and others ) have long suspected you do not understand 'liberation' in terms of Buddhadharma.

Whereupon you will grow defensive and invite a discussion with parameters set by yourself...
Go to a authentic teacher and come back in, say, five years.

We can then begin to communicate outside of the series of conventions you have built around your understanding.

:namaste:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:41 pm

Old talk huh? I will make one exception for your trolling.
"Because what appears is understood to be open, by not grasping after whatever appears, understand directly that whatever is experiences arises intrinsically free, self-originated, uncontrived, and untainted". - Longchenpa.
Go to you teacher, if you have one that you can speak to, and ask him for further explanation. He may give it to you if he sees you as ready for it.

Moreover, if you know my understanding is wrong, yours must be right by definition. Do you have full understanding of Liberation?
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