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Claims of Enlightenment... - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Claims of Enlightenment...

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Cittasanto » Thu May 10, 2012 10:15 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

dhamma_newb
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby dhamma_newb » Fri May 11, 2012 12:10 am

The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri May 11, 2012 12:27 am

I think there are valid reasons for being cautious with claiming an attainment, but apart from that it's all taboo inherited from tradition. There are also good reasons for claiming an attainment such as geting people to listen teachings and, very important too, to inspire people to train their minds hard, knowing it's possible to attain such states. I know I've been inspired from others telling they can achieve jhana.

The Buddha didn't prohibited lay people to claim anything so why do we, lay people, have to behave like monks?
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

Volcommerce
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Volcommerce » Fri May 11, 2012 12:48 am

Hi friends, to get the bottom of this matter, and to avoid speculation;

Modus,

Can you refer us to where Buddha did not prohibit people from making claims to enlightenment?

Similarly, to the other posters, can you please provide support of your opinions and claims in reference to Buddhist doctrine?

Also, there is a big difference between a poster selling a product and proving wisdom of enlightenment -
these two are not related and it would appear some posters are contributing information that is contradictory to common sense and truth, which is in contravention of right action and right speech.

Please clarify.

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SDC
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby SDC » Fri May 11, 2012 1:18 am

Volcommerce, how long have you been official studying the dhamma? I recall you said only a few days is that correct? Or am I misremebering?

Volcommerce
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Volcommerce » Fri May 11, 2012 2:12 am

Sigh,

The dhamma is the what Buddha realized through direct experience and spoke about his condition. He did not ''study'' the dhamma prior to his enlightenment. You must emphasize the nature of his intention, action and human condition if seek to express an understanding of Buddhism. Standing behind an explanation does not and will not lend you credibility.

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Goofaholix
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Goofaholix » Fri May 11, 2012 2:22 am


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SDC
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby SDC » Fri May 11, 2012 2:37 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 11, 2012 6:09 am

the prohabition is within the patimokkha, parajika & pacittia rules, as already mentioned earlier in the thread.
these rules are for monastics, however the Parajika is also covered by the fourth lay precept and the pacittia is covered within right speech.

The Dhamma is not always common sense, all phenomena are not self, is hardly common sense, just as all phenomena is stressful, is equally not common sense, and please directly support why any part is inappropriate, instead of making general statements they are not, as the line you are mentioning has been seen by members and mentioned it is a valid aspect to include.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 11, 2012 6:24 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 11, 2012 7:44 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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acinteyyo
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby acinteyyo » Fri May 11, 2012 12:36 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

Volcommerce
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Volcommerce » Fri May 11, 2012 4:02 pm

Acinteyyo,

Than you for posting these verses from the Brahmajala Sutta and clearing up any misconceptions - I am unfamiliar with them but I knew they would exist to be of this nature.

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piotr
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby piotr » Fri May 11, 2012 5:18 pm

Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

Volcommerce
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Re: Claims of Enlightenment...

Postby Volcommerce » Fri May 11, 2012 9:02 pm

Interesting sutta,

In reflection and consideration of truth regarding any statement regarding the path to enlightenment - it would not be a most venerable expression to use ''I'' in relation to an accurate explanation, however, as the Buddha stated, it is within a worldly nature of speech that one would use, ''I,'' and it would not be consistent in an enlightened mode, that a truthful heartfelt and compassionate method of speech and thought that one would constantly consider and configure how one's mode of speaking and thought is being expressed and perceived at every moment.


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