Causality transformed

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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Dan74 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:16 pm

I like this thread but 'allowance' sounds a bit clumsy to me, since it usually means a bit of spending money. Maybe 'acquiescence'?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby muni » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:40 pm

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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:52 pm

Nothing wrote:Clearly, it is not understood if you understand.

Perfectly. When it is understood, it will be noticed.
Oushi, can you provide a very good example to illustrate what you mean by the term "allowance" relative to causality so we can get back on to topic and maybe better understand what the true meaning is?

See causality as pushing and allowance as allowing. It requires a fundamental change in the way you look at reality.
Causality would be seen as developing from primordial cause, progressively occupying nothingness, having boundaries, source, direction, and strictly determined shape.
You can see allowance as unified field of infinite potentiality, in which phenomena arise through allowance. This potentiality can manifest itself only through liberation, by releasing the potential. This allowance is not two, it does not differ here and there. It's ungraspable and inconceivable. Phenomena arise because they are allowed, not forced to arise.

We can imagine how complete world should look like. I would say if it must be complete, it has to have the potential to become anything. It must be already "full", so to say. To be complete, it must also have the potential to allow, let go. Through liberation phenomena arise, because there is nothing stopping them. The only creative form of action is allowance, liberation. This infinite potentiality liberates itself, and from this liberation reality unfolds.
Now look around and see everything as liberated in this way. See how many thing were kept in bondage by you, because of ideas on how phenomena should or shouldn't be. Liberation is not partial, it does not keep things we consider wrong in bondage.

I am developing it ad hoc here, just for the sake of discussion. It all comes from raw contemplation of the notion of liberation, and all requirements that must be met. This gives understanding that can be spotted later on all over Dharma world.

Dan74 wrote:I like this thread but 'allowance' sounds a bit clumsy to me, since it usually means a bit of spending money. Maybe 'acquiescence'?

Yes, acquiescence sounds good.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Nothing » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:06 pm

oushi wrote:.....

Excellent.....understood. You should have written this in your opening post.

Words sometime have impact qualities but yet can dislodge the direction of original intent, they sometime do more harm than good yet without them we are lost.....anyway.

As posted previously, we're pointing at it differently and as you also suggested "perspective". There were no right nor wrong, just perspective from a point of view. In fairness, you were looking at it in the bigger picture sense.
As there are no views, the only thing that differs would be mis-understanding.....no meeting of minds.

It is nicely written and agreeable.....for there to be appreciation, there must first be understanding.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:42 pm

I'm glad you appreciated it.
There are no wrong view, as they also arise liberated. Attachment and attitude is what matters.
What is important, I did not post it to share a cool idea. I did it, because of the immediate benefits of applying it. Through seeing all phenomena as liberated, mind becomes liberated. It stops grasping and settles in boundless tolerance. With no desires, goals, effort or care. Self is gone, replaced by non-dual allowing.
...and I don't care whether it is, or is not the same liberation that great ones were speaking about throughout centuries. It does not need a certificate of authenticity to be enjoyed. This great acquiescence is not something I would want to abandon or oppose, as it's great love for every single phenomena.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Nothing » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:25 pm

Words really are useless at times trying to describe things like this and this one is actually quite deep, yet kind of allowing one to see even more clearly in a multi-dimensional way. Yet, with it, it settles the mind, stilling or making it more calmer.
Am lost for words really.....yet, it does kind of make you wonder, as it is a progressive issue, what would it be like at the end, can words really do justice at all? It is all rather quite interesting.....you ever even imagined what it would be like?
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:32 pm

Causality shows that everything is connected, not that everything is separate!
Cause = effect, the same as 1+1=2. [1+1] is the same as [2], not separate.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:45 pm

Nothing wrote:you ever even imagined what it would be like?

No. I had an idea slowly forming while studying masters testimonies, but I have never fully defined it, or wished for something particular. I was often overwhelmed by tremendous experiences that seemed to reveal part of something great and profound. But it was a great relief to let such an idea go. It may be worth mentioning that it was not an easy task. Probably all people involved in spiritual practice greatly desire Liberation. It's a desire we can easily justify, and one that we will not give up willingly.
Nothing wrote:Words really are useless at times trying to describe things like this

If words were useless I wouldn't even try ;) . They will of course fail describing an experience, but they are very useful when it comes down to setting the stage.
praeteritum wrote:Causality shows that everything is connected, not that everything is separate!
Cause = effect, the same as 1+1=2. [1+1] is the same as [2], not separate.

Causality is conceptual separation of the whole. Through causality, union appears as divided. If cause= effect, and every cause has it's causes etc. then everything=everything, and the notion of causality becomes pointless. If cause=effect, how are they connected, what are the connections you are speaking of??? :smile:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:11 pm

if the cause and effect are not same, they dont arise from themselves, not from other, not from both and not from neither. can you explain this what the situation then is ? for it seems you have ''grasped'' experientally some kind of understanding or experience of the true meaning of the middle way.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:21 pm

But everything does indeed equal everything.
Each moment or now, is the outcome of the previous moment. Causality is like a tree, where effect is new growth, and cause is everything that made that growth. The tree is one, but due to language, we could get confused into believing the branches are separate. But the leaves, the branches, the trunk and roots, are the tree. The process of the tree growing is the tree, because there is no stable thing that could be called the tree. There's always movement, either in the tiniest amount of growth, or in the tiniest amount of decay.
Causality is the process of change, and everything is in constant change. To walk up to the top step, means we walked up previous steps. Walking up all the steps = getting to the top.
Separation is an illusion.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:39 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:if the cause and effect are not same, they dont arise from themselves, not from other, not from both and not from neither. can you explain this what the situation then is ? for it seems you have ''grasped'' experientally some kind of understanding or experience of the true meaning of the middle way.

Cause and effect are ideas. They arise from thinking( :oops: ). Being, becoming, transforming something requires an intrinsic existence of that "something". Since such thing cannot be found, cause and effect does not exist. They are just ideas that helps people grasp and use the world. An agreement between people, a big simplification through complication.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:03 pm

praeteritum wrote:But everything does indeed equal everything.
Each moment or now, is the outcome of the previous moment. Causality is like a tree, where effect is new growth, and cause is everything that made that growth. The tree is one, but due to language, we could get confused into believing the branches are separate. But the leaves, the branches, the trunk and roots, are the tree. The process of the tree growing is the tree, because there is no stable thing that could be called the tree. There's always movement, either in the tiniest amount of growth, or in the tiniest amount of decay.
Causality is the process of change, and everything is in constant change. To walk up to the top step, means we walked up previous steps. Walking up all the steps = getting to the top.
Separation is an illusion.

If cause equal effect, why do we call them differently? Pure ignorance?
When does now end?
If effect is new growth, it cannot be the whole tree.
Causality is a strict model, change may be seen as its aspect. We can dive into the subject of change, i'm curious myself.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:34 pm

If the self does not exist, how come we know what the self is?

It is the same thing as I describe with the tree. If you reverse what I said, you could ask "what is the tree, it seems not to exist?"
This existing and not existing, are in fact the same, it is what it means to stop thinking in a dualistic manner.
It is how nirvana is nirvana, and yet it is emptiness and nothingness.

Now does not end, but moves. There is no stopping of a moment called now, no ending.
It is not frozen. However, the past = now. Cause = effect. (1+1) = (2)

"If cause equal effect, why do we call them differently? Pure ignorance?"
Not ignorance, but instead how language works. Why do we call the sides of a coin different, when there is only the coin?
Cause is the full description of the effect, at a moment in time.
Perhaps though there is randomness too. In which case, there may be effects without cause, but only at the moment that this effect comes into existence.
Randomness now would only be on the very smallest of scales. If it wasn't on a small scale, then a teacup could just appear from thin air.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:36 pm

praeteritum wrote:If the self does not exist, how come we know what the self is?

Do we really? We have few characteristics which we agreed to call self. That's a big difference between knowing the self. To postulate existence or no existence is a different story.
praeteritum wrote:This existing and not existing, are in fact the same, it is what it means to stop thinking in a dualistic manner.

And we behave like dualistic thinking never happened? I do not accept partial explanations, where you pick up what fits you, and ignore the rest.
praeteritum wrote:It is how nirvana is nirvana, and yet it is emptiness and nothingness.

Take all those mysterious concepts, put them in a bag and shake few times.
praeteritum wrote:"If cause equal effect, why do we call them differently? Pure ignorance?"
Not ignorance, but instead how language works. Why do we call the sides of a coin different, when there is only the coin?

Because they differ. Once more, why do you call the same thing with different names? What for? If just because language works this way, what more then an agreement it is?
praeteritum wrote:Now does not end, but moves. There is no stopping of a moment called now, no ending.
It is not frozen.

And what is this "now"?
Randomness now would only be on the very smallest of scales.

I would like to avoid further discussion about quantum fluctuation and similar stuff.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby praeteritum » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:32 pm

Now is now... Now is each moment, but it's an on going flow, otherwise you'd be stuck in the past. It's riding the wave. It's the process of time, and the process of causality/events.

"Take all those mysterious concepts, put them in a bag and shake few times."
It disperses the flavor.

"And we behave like dualistic thinking never happened?"
By the same logic, why are you saying cause and effect don't exist?
People tend to think in a dualistic manner. It's why you're separating cause and effect into part A and part B. In the same manner, we separate ourselves from the universe, when in fact we are the universe. Separating man from the universe is dualistic thinking, it may allow language to work, but in reality, there is no separation.

"Because they differ. Once more, why do you call the same thing with different names? What for? If just because language works this way, what more then an agreement it is?"
Again, do you not see that you are destroying your own argument?
Cause and effect exist. Drop a glass on a concrete floor, and the effect is for it to smash. There are many other causes and effects at the same time, but everyone can see the basic cause and effect of the broken glass.
So are you saying there's no cause and effect?
And what does differ mean anyway? If you have a color of red, you label it red, but travel towards it at a very fast speed, and it will change to blue, and we will call it blue. Are you saying that because to our eyes it changes color, that the fundamental of what it is (a wave.) is two separate parts?

The reason that (cause) = (effect), and is therefore the same, is mathematical in nature. That's why I mentioned the 1+1=2.
It can't be explained in a more simple way than that equation.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:57 pm

praeteritum wrote:Now is now... Now is each moment, but it's an on going flow, otherwise you'd be stuck in the past.

How do you differentiate between moments if "now" does not end? "Each" implies more then one. If moment is not the same as now, isn't it true that moment changes and now stays frozen?
praeteritum wrote:"And we behave like dualistic thinking never happened?"
By the same logic, why are you saying cause and effect don't exist?

It does not exist as something more than an idea.
Separating man from the universe is dualistic thinking, it may allow language to work, but in reality, there is no separation.

So, causality is just an agreement helping people to communicated, and not a valid device for investigating reality. Now go back to the first page, and see what I wrote in my first two or three posts. ;)
praeteritum wrote:And what does differ mean anyway? If you have a color of red, you label it red, but travel towards it at a very fast speed, and it will change to blue, and we will call it blue. Are you saying that because to our eyes it changes color, that the fundamental of what it is (a wave.) is two separate parts?

And how do you know that this concept of wave is a fundamental truth, and no a different type of illusion?
praeteritum wrote:The reason that (cause) = (effect), and is therefore the same, is mathematical in nature. That's why I mentioned the 1+1=2.

What is 1 and what is 2? I see a difference between them.
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby Lindama » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:23 pm

Reading this today: It evokes a quality of interconnectedness as a gate for allowing and arising to dance... melts certainty in reality within the simultaneity of interconnectedness. If one dissolves letting go of the glass, there is only broken glass on the floor... like the dissolving clouds. Govinda is taking us on a journey far beyond the details of mountain scenery.

The journey had a dream-like quality: rain, fog and clouds transformed the virgin forest, the rocks and mountains, gorges and precipices into a world of uncannily changing, fantastic forms, which appeared and dissolved with such suddenness that one began to doubt their reality as well as one's own. Mighty waterfalls hurled from invisible heights into an equally invisible bottomless depth. Clouds above and clouds below the narrow path....

(crossing over to Tibet): on the highest point of the pass the clouds that in huge masses surged angrily and threateningly dark against the mountain walls, dissolved into thin air as if by magic, the gates of heaven were opened, and a world of luminous colours under a deep blue sky stretched before one's eyes and a fierce sun lit up the snow-covered slopes on the other side of the pass so that one was almost blinded by their brilliance.....

The Way of the White Clouds, Lama Anagarika Govinda (p77)
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby muni » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:53 pm

I cannot read the whole tread, sorry, just am wondering....Okay. :smile:

All is an illusion.

No cause and so no effect and no suffering and its cause and no beings are. All is illusion, ideation.

The whole placebo teaching can be thrown away.
All phenomena are free and there is no suffering, finished.

Are all beings (mis) percieving in the same way and are all needing the same - hop, directly smashed into the ocean, voilà, case closed?
While you are awaken and all illusionlike beings like me are free as such, I am suffering.

I mean without dependence-emptiness together, we can reject dependence and merely cling to emptiness. Bodhichitta, by which the illusion doesn't become solid at all and no thing is to cling. Dependent appearance-emptiness equality.

:namaste:
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby oushi » Tue Oct 08, 2013 7:30 pm

Words of wisdom from Linji:
"There is only the Independent Man of the Way who is now listening to the Dharma. He is the mother of all the Buddhas. Therefore is the Buddha born from independence. If you truly understand this independence, then you know that the Buddha is not something to be attained!"
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Re: Causality transformed

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:04 pm

can you give some sort of short commentary to that statement if you understand it.
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