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Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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manas
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby manas » Tue May 08, 2012 2:29 pm

Hi Volcommerce

welcome to the forum. :hello:

Do you feel any desire whatsoever - at any time, even momentarily - for sexual pleasure, or for eating more food than your body actually needs, or for movies and other entertainments? An honest answer here could help clear things up a bit! (Don't worry if the answer is 'yes' - you wouldn't be alone there).

namaste _/I\_
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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SDC
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby SDC » Tue May 08, 2012 2:53 pm


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David N. Snyder
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 08, 2012 3:20 pm

See .

By checking your mind, body, actions with the hindrances you can somewhat gauge where you are at on the path. For example, how many hindrances have you eradicated? Are you married, do you have a girlfriend? Do you enjoy certain foods, parties, movies, etc.? If you still have any desire, be it sex, food cravings, entertainment, etc. then you are not enlightened and not even the third stage (out of 4) which is non-returner.

Enlightenment is difficult to attain which is why there have been so few enlightened ones and why there is so much suffering in the world.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Cittasanto » Tue May 08, 2012 3:32 pm

hi,
I am simply going to re-ask you why use terms you are not familiar with the popper use of, or meaning or for that matter terms from a tradition you know little about?
Anicca (impermanence,) Anatta (not-self,) and Dukkha (suffering) are so common in Buddhism that if you havn't come accross them yet it is supprising.
also your view of monks (people you have not met) is completely uninformed!


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Volcommerce » Tue May 08, 2012 3:35 pm

To suggest that the elimination of innate desire for sexual relations is a certified requirement to enlightenment is ridiculous. As the buddha has deconstructed the process that occurs when undergoing self realization, he has identified a shift in perception of once commonly held motivations. This does not mean that the ''elimination'' of such thing is a requirement or peg on the ladder of achievement, he is merely identifying the construct of the shift in perception that occurs.
To answer your question, no I do not have selfish food cravings or a lustful desire for sex, an enlightened being in observation of ones natural inclinations is merely observing the body's natural processses, my motivation to act upon such things is inherently unattached, ungrasping, unbecoming. I eat when I'm hungry, I drink when I'm thirsty, and I lie down when I'm tired.

It is mankind''s corrupted mindstate and selfish approach that defiles such things.
I have heard of monks entertaining celibacy to achieve...what? I strongly doubt there is anything to gain by following such a bizarre ritual. The minds wrestling ''for and against'' is one of its greatest diseases.
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santa100
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby santa100 » Tue May 08, 2012 3:48 pm


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reflection
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby reflection » Tue May 08, 2012 4:00 pm


Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Volcommerce » Tue May 08, 2012 4:13 pm

I am absolutely familiar with impermanence, not-self and suffering. Being that I am a true practitioner, it could be said I am more familiar with the tradition you study than you are, regardless of the terms you use to describe such concepts. I was merely pointing out that the robes worn by monks provide a general disservice to the community of unenlightened, who, will most likely begin to believe that the way one dresses is in any way whatsoever associated with concepts of self realization and enlightenment.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Cittasanto » Tue May 08, 2012 4:25 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Volcommerce » Tue May 08, 2012 4:32 pm

You stated that I knew nothing about it...

I responded with the truth of the matter of discussion, that I am indeed knowledgeable of the way, while in theory it could be said you are not, given your statement. As far as why you took offense to this, and are now using my response as a convenient point to disrespect my level of attainment, you should try to remain true in word and deed instead of making accusations if you are not prepared to discuss truth. I tend to avoid accusations they lack substance, you should consider this.

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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby SamKR » Tue May 08, 2012 4:33 pm


Bagoba
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Bagoba » Tue May 08, 2012 4:41 pm

Hello Volcommerce! Where are you from?
"This path is a thorough investigation and understanding of the limitations of the mortal condition of the body and mind. Now you're developing the ability to turn away from the conditioned and to release your identity from mortality." Ajan Sumedho, "Mindfulness, the path to the Deathless."

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Alobha
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Alobha » Tue May 08, 2012 4:48 pm


Volcommerce
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Volcommerce » Tue May 08, 2012 5:15 pm

Excellent question.

I'll start with a quote, ''To rid of oneself of a disease, become one with it''

Our planet can sustain each being with land, clean water and food.
Hungry ghosts have pillaged and horded the planets resources and manipulated economies through corrupt usury debt based monetary practices. International banking cartels have established a global corpotocracy empire by paying off elected leader in exchange for coveted resources, raping the people of the fat of their land, ensuring poverty, death and disease and suffering are rampant - this can be immediately alleviated by re instituting fair banking practices.

To rid oneself of suffering, a process must unfold. An individual must develop ones focus and become aware of ones thoughts, and to realize one's inner nature and the awareness and simplicity of perception within, striving towards enlightenment; This requires truth and honest intention, something most do not posses and strive for. As long as individuals are grasping and attaching they will be bonded, and suffering.

Overcoming suffering is to not fear suffering within oneself and to accept all that is, to observe conditions of everything without the burden of identifiying onself with that which the selfish determine to be pain, suffering and unwanted. It is not desirable for many to undergo this process because there is no desire for the profane to strive towards contact with the inner aspect of oneself that i describe as the undescribable, unexplainable, empty vessel, nonidentifable, ultimately which is the final resting ground of peace, contentment and satisfaction, acceptance - eliminating suffering from ones existance and acceptance.

I'm not sure if this is the most descriptive or most well explained solution but I did my best to describe the way.


In an unenlightened state, one is unaware that ones own selfish actions are the cause of ones suffering,

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue May 08, 2012 6:47 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

Buckwheat
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am buddha/arahat

Postby Buckwheat » Tue May 08, 2012 7:05 pm

Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

nobody12345
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby nobody12345 » Tue May 08, 2012 7:08 pm


Buckwheat
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Buckwheat » Tue May 08, 2012 7:18 pm

Honest, straightforward question: what is your daily routine / lifestyle?
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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manas
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby manas » Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 pm

It just occurred to me that even if someone came into this forum and followed all the necessary protocols and answered all questions correctly and politely, even displaying exhaustive knowledge of the suttas, and claimed arahantship, that most of here would still not believe them, even if it were true - because we have no certain way to verify it (although i'm sure we would be polite about it, as one should be towards anyone, for that matter).

Just an obervation

:anjali:
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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Goofaholix
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Re: Enlightenment...Nirvana...I am arahat

Postby Goofaholix » Wed May 09, 2012 12:14 am



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