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 Post subject: Integration
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:05 pm 
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I find this term funny because this one word is the basic definition of itself. In all the teachings I have ever heard which talk about integration, the explanation of what it means is that "we must integrate." Movement? Integrate it. Daily life? We must integrate this. The definition of integration is "combine (one thing) with another so that they become a whole." To integrate rigpa with movement and everything is contemplation, right? So, what is "integration?" Like most of the terms, I think it sounds more confusing than it really is and once you figure out what it is referring to, it is not so difficult to understand. To me, it seems like a very subtle shift of awareness without forgetting awareness of emptiness. Your conscious mind really can't fixate on two things at once; one thing must be transferred to autopilot (e.g. when driving while talking, switching radio dial, etc. driving has temporarily been relocated to the realm of the 'autopilot'). This is the same process that allows one to get proficient at an instrument. So... is this what is meant by "integration?" I probably didn't explain myself very well, but any answers should clarify.

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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:13 pm 
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For me, I think one important aspect of "integration" is the opposite of maintaining a strict division between formal practice and daily life.

Partly I think this is down to the difference between mind and the nature of mind, so whatever mental activity is occurring then it is still possible to maintain the view without being distracted by, or totally occupied by either one or the other. I guess the "playing the musical instrument" is a better comparison than the term "autopilot", which suggests to me some dullness in awareness.

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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:55 am 
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Oh, thanks for the reply.

Upon rereading, I see it looks like I think I know what I'm talking about, but I did not mean to give that impression at all. By the end of the paragraph, I think that is obvious, but I can see how this might be a bit confusing to an outsider (ie. not me).

I've had moments where I think I catch a glimpse / realization of something. Thinking back on those moments now, I see that the "rush" of awareness comes over me through an intellectual process, however, so I'm doubtful it is accurate. Although, now that I think about it, "A" is an intellectual process to begin guru yoga, so maybe not. I consider reflections in water and have a shift of perspective, basically.

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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:37 am 
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I have heard HYT tantra described as the highly integrated tantra.
And in that context integrated meant that the practice had protocols that encompassed other activities through explicit internal and external activities or that the mind states have been tempered by practice.


An example of the explicit internal and external activities is reciting specific mantras or conducting visualizations in regards to eating.
An example of a mind that has been tempered by the practice is having the mind that intends on eating because of intention to fulfill the bodhisattva aspirations instead of self preservation or for the sake of pleasure.

Because we do not yet have formalized and widely recognized translations of technical terms it is hard to answer questions like this with 100% certainty online.

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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:30 pm 
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for me integrating ie rigpa is to after introducing and experiencing it or the state of contemplation, you bring it more and more familiar and close and connected with your normal day to day mental state and ''integrate'' the new experience of awareness into the normal state of mind, as you integrate you transform and that indicates that you have integrated this new awareness or the state of contemplation into your normal day to day awareness and that has become part of it or partly, more or less integrated into your awareness and being.

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If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:24 pm 
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KonchokZoepa wrote:
for me integrating ie rigpa is to after introducing and experiencing it or the state of contemplation, you bring it more and more familiar and close and connected with your normal day to day mental state and ''integrate'' the new experience of awareness into the normal state of mind, as you integrate you transform and that indicates that you have integrated this new awareness or the state of contemplation into your normal day to day awareness and that has become part of it or partly, more or less integrated into your awareness and being.


:good:

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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Jean-Luc Achard on integration:

"Oh yes there are plenty of things to do. Rushen for instance in order to clearly deepen this knowledge and have a direct experience that is not produced by our discursiveness. Then, the training of the 3 doors. Then specific techniques such as the Four Natural Accesses to properly access the state of Trekcho. You seem to imply that there is nothing to do: there are things to do to enter this state, and once you're in it you just cultivate it by integrating other things (after having become familiarized with it). This appears to be not understood at all in this discussion. When you are in this state, you just have to stabilize it. This takes the whole path to do so! (Don't bypass it because you don't like it, it's precisely like this, one has to practice, period). You may state otherwise but this is not Dzogchen anymore. This is Chan. We don't accept Chan as having a definitive perspective on the natural state in Dzogchen. This is a sutra-based approach which is at best dualistic (the 2 truths) or at worst nihilistic (don't do nothing). Then, what is happening in the meditation? Nothing, nothing at all. No integration. Once you are stable in the experience of the natural, you realize that this experience is uncompounded, unaltered, etc., and you don't have to do anything to correct it. But in general everybody (including our masters at a stage in their life) regresses from it. So one has to become familiar with it, through contemplation practice. But this contemplation practice is aimless if it just mean sitting and doing nothing. That means that each time you quit your sitting meditation, you are regressing from that state because ordinary life is particularly good at putting you back into an ego-centered life. But, if you want to integrate the natural state in a non-regressive way, you have to do something (otherwise it does not do it by itselt just for you). And integration is the very purpose of Trekcho otherwise your Thogel is not going to go very far. So again, i'm sorry to repeat it, but in while in the Trekcho state, you have to integrate 4 things (please Jax learn this by heart, I wrote it several times but you by-pass it constantly whereas it is the core of Trekcho practice and of all Dzogchen practices):

1. integration of the activities of the 3 doors (there are specific things to integrate here, very precise),

2. integration of the six sense consciousnesses (also specific things here too),

3. integration of thoughts (same as above), and

4. integration of various things (this larger in scope but precise too).

I'm not enumerating this list out of my imagination. This is precisely what one has TO DO in Trekcho practice. If your Trekcho and experience of the natural state consists in doing nothing, then your result is nothing. If you try to integrate the 4 modalities listed above (and you have a lot of specific practices in there), then you integrate your whole being to the natural state and that is real Trekcho."
- Jean-Luc Achard


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:14 pm 
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:popcorn:

Sönam

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
:popcorn:

Sönam


:popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1:

When you can't tell which is which - that's integration. :smile:

The quote from Jean - luc, whom I consider one of the most advanced of the Western practitioners, is apt as a to do list (roughly defined) of integration.

The point is that you can be passive or active in your pursuit of enlightenment: there are many practices TO DO which enable integration, or you can stare at the wall for 8 years, which also works. :smile:

ChNNR has taught over 100 secondary practices. When you have the transmission of each practice, you can DO these, as appropriate to your circumstances, and get the benefit - integration of the natural mind with activity. Then, with direct experience, the issue / question of integration becomes the famous "one taste" or the "all good", and that is the "integration" beyond words.

The precise problem is that all language is dualistic, and pointing at the non-dual natural state of awareness with terms like 'integration" or "informed by" or "non-dual" which are, in language, intrinsically dualistic, is NOT the same thing as the direct experience of the natural state, which cannot be described in words.

That said, some words are more pointy than others.

http://namgyalgarnorth.com/recent-ssi-p ... -by-chris/

Note the mountains and the space between the mountains - now make this the same observation.



:popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1:


:heart:


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:20 am 
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padma norbu wrote:
I find this term funny


I find it grating. And with abundant negative connotations. Not my favorite word in the teachings.


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:51 pm 
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Rigpa is everywhere! Integration is learning to see how and why this is so. Thats my take at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Kunzang wrote:

I find it grating. And with abundant negative connotations.


Is there a reason for this? The only thing I can think of is that you hated calculus.

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we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:32 am 
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futerko wrote:
Kunzang wrote:

I find it grating. And with abundant negative connotations.


Is there a reason for this? The only thing I can think of is that you hated calculus.


You must be young.


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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:37 am 
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oldbob wrote:
Sönam wrote:
:popcorn:

Sönam


:popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1:

When you can't tell which is which - that's integration. :smile:

The quote from Jean - luc, whom I consider one of the most advanced of the Western practitioners, is apt as a to do list (roughly defined) of integration.

The point is that you can be passive or active in your pursuit of enlightenment: there are many practices TO DO which enable integration, or you can stare at the wall for 8 years, which also works. :smile:

ChNNR has taught over 100 secondary practices. When you have the transmission of each practice, you can DO these, as appropriate to your circumstances, and get the benefit - integration of the natural mind with activity. Then, with direct experience, the issue / question of integration becomes the famous "one taste" or the "all good", and that is the "integration" beyond words.

The precise problem is that all language is dualistic, and pointing at the non-dual natural state of awareness with terms like 'integration" or "informed by" or "non-dual" which are, in language, intrinsically dualistic, is NOT the same thing as the direct experience of the natural state, which cannot be described in words.

That said, some words are more pointy than others.

http://namgyalgarnorth.com/recent-ssi-p ... -by-chris/

Note the mountains and the space between the mountains - now make this the same observation.



:popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1: :popcorn: :buddha1:


:heart:


:namaste: :smile: Old Bob,

When words in mind and the space between words in mind are the same observation, speechless staring like a fool is there only. Words pointing like can't tell which is which, mountains space mountains space...amazing!

Without space is seen, things merely are focussed/grasped.

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 Post subject: Re: Integration
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:09 pm 
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and then there is the Milarepa story about Milarepa rapping his knuckles on space and putting his hand through the wall, when asked if things exist or do not exist. Words pointing beyond words.


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