Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:10 pm

T. Chokyi wrote:
"....some special transmissions do require that the receiving student make sizable offerings, especially some of the teachings from the Dakini transmissions."


Sorry, but bells and whistles go off when I hear that somebody has to expect to make "sizable offerings" for a transmission, especially for "Dakini transmissions"...I got my "Dakini Transmissions" pretty inexpensively, very reasonably, but then again I wasn't buying "this cycle" maybe its the expensive one, and we should get prepared rather than expect any "work study"...hello?

Well back in the day you offered gold to get an initiation. But in any case the whole thing is quite strange.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby smcj » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:33 pm

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.

That was more or less my teacher's admonition to me. However one must evaluate someone they are considering accepting as a teacher. All others get a pass.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby T. Chokyi » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:36 pm

Pero wrote:
T. Chokyi wrote:
"....some special transmissions do require that the receiving student make sizable offerings, especially some of the teachings from the Dakini transmissions."


Sorry, but bells and whistles go off when I hear that somebody has to expect to make "sizable offerings" for a transmission, especially for "Dakini transmissions"...I got my "Dakini Transmissions" pretty inexpensively, very reasonably, but then again I wasn't buying "this cycle" maybe its the expensive one, and we should get prepared rather than expect any "work study"...hello?

Well back in the day you offered gold to get an initiation. But in any case the whole thing is quite strange.


Hi Pero,

Yes, yes, there were times like that, but there are some examples of teachers who didn't ask for gold, even back in the day, there were teachers who had groups form around them and they gave teachings without asking for gold, it's really more "open" for people to my way of thinking.

Now when you say "in any case the whole thing is quite strange" do you mean back in the day when gold was offered was quite strange or Ivo's "whole thing" is quite strange in your opinion? My guess is you mean Ivo's "whole thing" seems quite strange to you.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Pero » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:45 pm

smcj wrote:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.

That was more or less my teacher's admonition to me. However one must evaluate someone they are considering accepting as a teacher. All others get a pass.

Sure although I'm not sure about the "all others getting a pass" thing. :smile:

T. Chokyi wrote:
Pero wrote:Well back in the day you offered gold to get an initiation. But in any case the whole thing is quite strange.

Yes, yes, there were times like that, but there are some examples of teachers who didn't ask for gold, even back in the day, there were teachers who had groups form around them and they gave teachings without asking for gold, it's really more "open" for people to my way of thinking.

Now when you say "in any case the whole thing is quite strange" do you mean back in the day when gold was offered was quite strange or Ivo's "whole thing" is quite strange in your opinion? My guess is you mean Ivo's "whole thing" seems quite strange to you.

Yes, the latter.
Teachers don't have to ask, I think giving gifts is not really for the teacher but yourself.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Alfredo » Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:53 pm

Simon E. wrote:
I was a student of CTR. Many years after his death, while still attempting to come to terms with events
I asked Shamar Rinpoche what he made of it all. He was silent for a while. Then he said ' What I am sure about is that Trungpa Rinpoche did more for Dharma than most of us will do in many lifetimes '.
Closing ranks , or a greater truth ?
I don't know...Really.


I sympathize with your situation, I really do. Hopefully this discussion has not been too awkward for you. I mention Trungpa mainly because he is so famous and influential, and his case relatively well known.

My response to Shamar Rinpoche would go like this: Was it worth it? That is, was the spread of Tibetan Buddhism into 1960's North America worth the enormous human cost in terms of alcoholism, AIDS, and eclipse of positive values in favor of cult-like behavior? If human sacrifice would have helped, would that too have been worth it? (Because that's what it amounts to--the sacrifice of people's lives.) Trungpa was obviously effective in founding institutions, but one could just as easily argue that he poisoned the well for other, less problematic groups.

Anyway, why should we assume that Shamar Rinpoche knows what is good for the Dharma? Is he magic? Can he see into the future? Or conceivably he has good reasons for saying what he did, I dunno, but just because he has a fancy title doesn't make his opinion better than other people's.

By the way, someone earlier pointed out that unlike Lama Ivo, Trungpa was a recognized tulku. True (I think), but that wasn't why he became popular. His followers didn't flock to him saying "Hooray, the current holder of the Trungpa tulku line has arrived on our soil!" but something more along the lines of "Groovy, a real Tibetan lama!" Trungpa's personal charisma mattered more than any credentials he carried.

smcj wrote:
For instance we have the odd case of Steven Seagal.


That is indeed an odd case, and it has less to do with Seagal than with Penor Rinpoche, who recognized him and Jetsunma (partly, one assumes, in anticipation of financial donations, and in ignorance of just how whack the two of them are). Now Penor Rinpoche has done a lot of good work, e.g. in supporting the Namdroling Institute. But thanks to the social structure of Tibetan Buddhism, questioning the central conceit that lamas can identify incarnations is just not on--that would tend to call into question everybody's credentials.

Malcolm wrote:
Alfredo seems to think that Ivo needs to be called out at as a fraud.


No--not yet, anyway. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he's insincere, though it is possible that he is deluded, and many aspects of his teachings (and the group dynamics underlying them) do raise ethical concerns. Again, I would honestly appreciate additional information. For example, the anecdotes of the several people who have interacted with him in the past, and posted above, I find revealing.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Malcolm » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:06 am

Alfredo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Alfredo seems to think that Ivo needs to be called out at as a fraud.


No--not yet, anyway. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he's insincere, though it is possible that he is deluded, and many aspects of his teachings (and the group dynamics underlying them) do raise ethical concerns. Again, I would honestly appreciate additional information. For example, the anecdotes of the several people who have interacted with him in the past, and posted above, I find revealing.


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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Jikan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:36 am

smcj wrote:
...and I know of several fake Tibetan tulkus...
I think it should be said loud and often that "tulku" or "rinpoche" status is no guarantee of any Dharmic qualities. Even the ones that are correctly identified need practice to bring it out in them. Anybody that is unclear about this should watch the DVD "Tulku" which is by a bona-fide American tulku, one of Trungpa's sons. He's not into it at all, and just wants to be left alone to live his life.


perhaps an even more explicit example:
http://taggiemukpo.org/about-brief-history-taggie.html

the claims & expectations made for someone rarely coincide with their qualities... or needs, for that matter.

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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Jikan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:40 am

Back to the topic of Kalushev:

I'm reminded of Gurdjieff (at least the version of Gurdjieff presented in books such as Meetings with Remarkable Men) in three respects: 1. the notion of testing the capacity of one's disciples through an open-ended and dangerous journey 2. demanding large sums of money up front 3. making a radical transformation of one's trajectory on a moment's notice

Perhaps he has some vision in mind for where he's going with this, given that it's not without precedent (at least as it's been described in this thread so far)
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Jikan » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:50 am

Alfredo wrote: His followers didn't flock to him saying "Hooray, the current holder of the Trungpa tulku line has arrived on our soil!" but something more along the lines of "Groovy, a real Tibetan lama!" Trungpa's personal charisma mattered more than any credentials he carried.


Somewhat of a contradiction here, given that "a real Tibetan lama" is, in fact, a credential he carried. (was it a credential in the way Trungpa used the term, as in The Myth of Freedom?) But that's not the reason I partly disagree with this perspective. If you take a look at the sorts of things going on in the spirituality scene in North America before Trungpa arrived, you'd agree it was exceptionally lightweight. Trungpa cut through that and presented a message in clear, elegant English that met people's needs in certain ways*. Yes, his rakehell charisma was surely a factor, but so was his exceptional capability as a speaker and pedagogue, and the particular historical circumstances he found creative ways to address.


*I find his published writings to be very helpful and inspiring indeed. I have reason to assume I am hardly the only one.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby smcj » Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:01 am

perhaps an even more explicit example:
http://taggiemukpo.org/about-brief-history-taggie.html

the claims & expectations made for someone rarely coincide with their qualities... or needs, for that matter.

It didn't exactly say he was a tulku. Hadn't heard of him before. Gezar Mukpo is the one that made the DVD.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Alfredo » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:17 am

Jikan: Good points. But did Trungpa really elevate popular spiritual discussion? From the 1960's counterculture, to the New Age Movement of the 1970's and 1980's, I don't see that much of a difference in quality. Speaking strictly of the influence on Buddhism, or Tibetan Buddhism, it is true that Trungpa's writings were some of the first bona fide Tibetan Buddhist works popularly available in English (along with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and a few other things). His remarks about "spiritual materialism" are well known, but I can't say that they have made much of a difference. Compare with the influence of the Dalai Lama, who has improved ecumenical relations, inspired much solid academic study (*), and emphasized mainstream ethical values.

(*) Cf. Snow Lion with the relatively lightweight, market-driven output of (Trungpa's) Shambhala Publications. Unfortunately, the latter has recently absorbed the former. Also there is Wisdom Publications, which is FPMT-affiliated and very respectable.

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You don't have better ways to spend your time?


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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Simon E. » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:56 am

Alfredo wrote:Simon E. wrote:
I was a student of CTR. Many years after his death, while still attempting to come to terms with events
I asked Shamar Rinpoche what he made of it all. He was silent for a while. Then he said ' What I am sure about is that Trungpa Rinpoche did more for Dharma than most of us will do in many lifetimes '.
Closing ranks , or a greater truth ?
I don't know...Really.


I sympathize with your situation, I really do. Hopefully this discussion has not been too awkward for you. I mention Trungpa mainly because he is so famous and influential, and his case relatively well known.

My response to Shamar Rinpoche would go like this: Was it worth it? That is, was the spread of Tibetan Buddhism into 1960's North America worth the enormous human cost in terms of alcoholism, AIDS, and eclipse of positive values in favor of cult-like behavior? If human sacrifice would have helped, would that too have been worth it? (Because that's what it amounts to--the sacrifice of people's lives.) Trungpa was obviously effective in founding institutions, but one could just as easily argue that he poisoned the well for other, less problematic groups.

Anyway, why should we assume that Shamar Rinpoche knows what is good for the Dharma? Is he magic? Can he see into the future? Or conceivably he has good reasons for saying what he did, I dunno, but just because he has a fancy title doesn't make his opinion better than other people's.

By the way, someone earlier pointed out that unlike Lama Ivo, Trungpa was a recognized tulku. True (I think), but that wasn't why he became popular. His followers didn't flock to him saying "Hooray, the current holder of the Trungpa tulku line has arrived on our soil!" but something more along the lines of "Groovy, a real Tibetan lama!" Trungpa's personal charisma mattered more than any credentials he carried.

smcj wrote:
For instance we have the odd case of Steven Seagal.


That is indeed an odd case, and it has less to do with Seagal than with Penor Rinpoche, who recognized him and Jetsunma (partly, one assumes, in anticipation of financial donations, and in ignorance of just how whack the two of them are). Now Penor Rinpoche has done a lot of good work, e.g. in supporting the Namdroling Institute. But thanks to the social structure of Tibetan Buddhism, questioning the central conceit that lamas can identify incarnations is just not on--that would tend to call into question everybody's credentials.

Malcolm wrote:
Alfredo seems to think that Ivo needs to be called out at as a fraud.


No--not yet, anyway. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he's insincere, though it is possible that he is deluded, and many aspects of his teachings (and the group dynamics underlying them) do raise ethical concerns. Again, I would honestly appreciate additional information. For example, the anecdotes of the several people who have interacted with him in the past, and posted above, I find revealing.

Yes thats right. All of we students of CTR were credulous idiots and you who ( I bet ) never met him know best. And you think that you have a mission to put us all right.
May it bring you much joy.

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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Simon E. » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:01 am

T. Chokyi wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
My concern Malcolm, was that T.Chokyi with no justification that was clear to me then posted a video about sexual abuse by an unconnected Lama..


So what do you suggest? Frankly, most of us who have been around for any length of time have come to the conclusion that trying to out unethical teachers doesn't work. Their students just cling tighter, and circle the wagons. For example, Mary Finnegan has been waging a war on Sogyal Rinpoche for more than twenty years. Is he any less successful? No. He is more successful than ever.


Hi Simon,

There are many people that ask me who Mary Finnegan is and who Sogyal Rinpoche is, so I figure I know about this video and blog, and I know very well what Malcolm means, why not share to illustrate Malcolm's point, it's a "free board", I didn't know I had to "justify" when I put a link on DW.

Malcolm made a very good point, but I'm not surprised that someone would jump to the conclusion from this post by Malcolm and the post I made that someone is accusing Ivo of sexual abuse.

I don't know Ivo and am not accusing him by showing something about what Malcolm was referring to.

:namaste:

I wasn't referring to Malcolms post. Macolm was pointing to the futility of such missions. YOU posted the specific allegations. and by so doing tarred 'Ivo' with the same brush.

Your knowledge of 'guilt ' by association is lacking to the point of naivety.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Alfredo » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:38 am

Simon E.
Yes thats right. All of we students of CTR were credulous idiots and you who ( I bet ) never met him know best. And you think that you have a mission to put us all right.
May it bring you much joy.

No, I never knew him, and I wouldn't presume to tell you what to believe about him. However, reliable information about him and his group can be obtained even by outsiders, and by now there is broad agreement as to facts. What additional light could possibly be shed on the abuses, the personality cult, etc. that would explain it, or make it any better? Are your fond memories, and felt sense of spiritual benefit, worth the cost in human lives? It frustrates me that even now, people continue to defend his enormously flawed personal example, even knowing what they know; and that whether we like it or not, Trungpa has come to represent Tibetan Buddhism in the West, to the point that it is all but impossible to avoid his influence. I don't expect to change this situation, I can only lament it.

I do not think you are credulous idiots; I think the participants joined for a variety of reasons, among which a search for community and spiritual meaning figure prominently. If you hadn't gravitated to Trungpa, it would have been somebody else (not necessarily even a Buddhist).
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby MalaBeads » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:49 am

Malcolm wrote: people are going to believe whatever the hell they want no matter what anyone else says.


I think this is quite true. Human beings believe what resonates with their experience. I am of the opinion that is why it is said that there are 84,000 teachings (symbolic of an infinite number). Everyone needs something different. This is actually quite a profound approach, to see the actual meaning of 'every one needs something different' or '84,000 teachings'. It means no one can judge, even though there are conventional social standards. These conventional social standards maintain the samsaric world. I would think that dharma practitioners would want to understand this. I know I'm still working on it. ;)
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:53 am

MalaBeads wrote:
Malcolm wrote: people are going to believe whatever the hell they want no matter what anyone else says.


I think this is quite true. Human beings believe what resonates with their experience. I am of the opinion that is why it is said that there are 84,000 teachings (symbolic of an infinite number). Everyone needs something different. This is actually quite a profound approach, to see the actual meaning of 'every one needs something different' or '84,000 teachings'. It means no one can judge, even though there are conventional social standards. These conventional social standards maintain the samsaric world. I would think that dharma practitioners would want to understand this. I know I'm still working on it. ;)
While this is very true, we must not forget that there is this thing called worldly dharma, and it does not lead to liberation. The question is not if there are many and varied approaches to truth, but whether a specific approoach, that of Ivo Kalushev, leads to truth and liberation.

My opinion, based on what I read on the website, is that it does not. I hope to proven wrong, not by people here, but by the outcome of Ivo Kalushevs method. I'm not holding my breath though.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Simon E. » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:59 am

Alfredo wrote:Simon E.
Yes thats right. All of we students of CTR were credulous idiots and you who ( I bet ) never met him know best. And you think that you have a mission to put us all right.
May it bring you much joy.

No, I never knew him, and I wouldn't presume to tell you what to believe about him. However, reliable information about him and his group can be obtained even by outsiders, and by now there is broad agreement as to facts. What additional light could possibly be shed on the abuses, the personality cult, etc. that would explain it, or make it any better? Are your fond memories, and felt sense of spiritual benefit, worth the cost in human lives? It frustrates me that even now, people continue to defend his enormously flawed personal example, even knowing what they know; and that whether we like it or not, Trungpa has come to represent Tibetan Buddhism in the West, to the point that it is all but impossible to avoid his influence. I don't expect to change this situation, I can only lament it.

I do not think you are credulous idiots; I think the participants joined for a variety of reasons, among which a search for community and spiritual meaning figure prominently. If you hadn't gravitated to Trungpa, it would have been somebody else (not necessarily even a Buddhist).

To justify CTR's actions would be for me deeply dishonest.
To deny his huge influence for good would be just as dishonest. Even a casual reading of the views of those teachers who held and still hold him in the highest regard is a role call of some of the most renowned teachers of the day.
One of his students said at his funeral that he had never known anyone who did so much good and so much harm. Both.
To deny either is a result for need a simplistic and partial view that reduces our own dissonance in the face of an enigma..
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:08 am

Simon E. wrote:To deny either is a result for need a simplistic and partial view that reduces our own dissonance in the face of an enigma..
Without having a pony in this race and without wanting to further encourage off-topic discussion, I would have to say that one persons enigma is another persons blaring contradiction/hypocrisy.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Simon E. » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:12 am

Yes, well you would.
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Re: Lama Ivo Kalushev of Bulgaria

Postby Anders » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:41 am

Malcolm wrote:
Alfredo wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Alfredo seems to think that Ivo needs to be called out at as a fraud.


No--not yet, anyway. I haven't seen anything to suggest that he's insincere, though it is possible that he is deluded, and many aspects of his teachings (and the group dynamics underlying them) do raise ethical concerns. Again, I would honestly appreciate additional information. For example, the anecdotes of the several people who have interacted with him in the past, and posted above, I find revealing.


You don't have better ways to spend your time?


On an internet forum, this is generally a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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