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The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
dharmapasschakra
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby dharmapasschakra » Mon May 07, 2012 10:54 am


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Dan74
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Dan74 » Mon May 07, 2012 11:02 am

_/|\_

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Khalil Bodhi
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Mon May 07, 2012 11:04 am

Hi dharmapasschakra,

Tilt wasn't calling you a pervert, he was simply saying the such views are all-too-easily distorted. I can assure you that no offense was intended. :heart:
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

Uposatha Observance Club:
My Practice Blog:

dharmapasschakra
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby dharmapasschakra » Mon May 07, 2012 11:29 am

Many Buddhists traditions teach that it does not come from the outside, that we already have it. There is a koan of a Fire God looking for fire and Linchi calling his students the drinkers of dregs - "at this very moment what is really missing?" A great Zen scripture is called Faith in Heart/Mind. Great Faith. But... before this great faith is realized, before we can stop drinking dregs and imagining that there is something to be attained, there is agreat deal of garbage, or mistaken notions and powerful habits that need to be let gone of. Otherwise what you propose is just a bit of intellectual gymnastics - it does not penetrate every pore of your body, every action, every thought. It is just a fantasy.[/quote]



life itself is already very sophisticated model of fantasy and misunderstanding.

have a question for you.

let's say i put your 500 euros in your pocket while you're sleeping.

you wake up and ask me whereabouts.

i say you have one.

you would strongly suggest "I don't!!!"

forget about enlightenments here.

when you scream "I don't!!!" your "I don't!!!" is a fantasy.

you have one. and you have no knowledge whatsoever of "having one"

you believe in the fantasy of "not having one" and screams loudly so.

i get the paper out and you would say "ah..."

but here is the funny part.

whether you know it or not doesn't matter after all. at the point of paying off some bills of 500 euros this afternoon, i will pull that paper from your pocket and pay with my hand for you.

through the whole time you think you don't have one = fantasy.

and the funnier part is,

if you don't like this story cause it sounds like you're in a fantasy just flip it upside down and it works totally fine with putting ME in the situation of Yours instead.

why? cause 500 euros is still there and whoever somebody gonna pay the bill this afternoon.

anyway, i know fully i'm in a FANTASY. you too. just different one. but if you don't know just leave it there cause that doesn't harm even a single tiny bit of your logic that dharmapass is in a false fantasy either. i'm serious.

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daverupa
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby daverupa » Mon May 07, 2012 11:40 am


dharmapasschakra
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby dharmapasschakra » Mon May 07, 2012 11:43 am


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Dan74
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Dan74 » Mon May 07, 2012 11:47 am

You've been saying the same thing over and over again, dharmapass, but I sense that you have not been listening.

All the best!
_/|\_

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Jaidyn
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Jaidyn » Mon May 07, 2012 12:41 pm


dharmapasschakra
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby dharmapasschakra » Mon May 07, 2012 1:02 pm

dharmapasschakra: The grain of mysticism you add to your line of reasoning by being obscure, that mysticism seems to dry up.

Assuming you are not ironic: Why would that be a "very nice quote"? Seems to just point to the old cliché buddhist-reasoning about the "I" that everyone learns to replicate by reading a few books.

(I am not criticizing you daverupa as I can not judge your insight by those particular words)[/quote]


I know I might sound mystic to some including you.

But it's actually not mystic itself.

When you see something you don't understand that's mystic.

In the universe, an apple floating in the air like a balloon.

It's mystic cause you never knew an apple could be floating in the air.

After you learn gravity and watch the same footage, it's not mystic at all. Just less gravity.

Actually, my mysticism is going further for you cause you're asking.

Gravity itself is totally irrelevant to be mystic or not.

If you don't know about it it's mystic. If you do the mysticism dries up.

but not in this case, you wouldn't have asked more if it really DRIED UP.



The reason why I said it's nice is that I agreed to his quote and by his quoting i can see he agreed to my statements to some degree cause the ethos in my story is fundamentally based on that "I..." am a fantasy. just the expanded version of the logic.

btw, i fully understood dave's comment and agreed it. seems you find him mystic here. but i assure you if you criticize me with this you should to him, if you want to be fair in terms of logicality since we are saying the same. but not obliged in any way though.

santa100
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby santa100 » Mon May 07, 2012 1:37 pm

Hi Dharmapasschakra, if we go back to your original simile about the 10 km marathon for a moment, notice that while it's certainly important to recognize that the runner has a bottle of water of his own, he still has to "run hard" to make it to the finish line. Knowing alone wouldn't get him to the finish line. He still needs to run on his own 2 legs to complete the marathon. Effort (Viriya) is a very important element in the Seven Factors of Enlightenment (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C4%ABrya )

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Jaidyn
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Jaidyn » Mon May 07, 2012 1:53 pm

Response to dharmapasschakra:

"Actually, my mysticism is going further for you cause you're asking."

With that reply I guess it is pointless to expect any other kind of answer.

However... for me your way of communicating does not need to be clear, logic and behaved. I enjoy parts of what you have written and will possibly concider your thoughts more in deepth in my own practice. We all walk the path alone and are free to try whatever thoughts and techniques we like.

The consequence of your manner, to some people or at least to me, is that it implies you have reached some kind of realization, and therefore I find interest in criticizing you. I am critisizing you because I think you are unclear. I am not criticizing you to put you down personally, but to make you clarify your thoughts.

To me daverupa does not imply he is realized and therefore it would be more of an attack to criticize him for what he has written here.

"If you don't know about it it's mystic. If you do the mysticism dries up.

but not in this case, you wouldn't have asked more if it really DRIED UP.
"

True.

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kirk5a
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 07, 2012 2:35 pm

Realizing we "already have" what is to be purified is part of the beginning of the path of purification, not the end.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

dharmapasschakra
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby dharmapasschakra » Mon May 07, 2012 2:53 pm

Last edited by dharmapasschakra on Mon May 07, 2012 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Dan74
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Dan74 » Mon May 07, 2012 2:57 pm

What is enlightenment to you?
_/|\_

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ground
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby ground » Mon May 07, 2012 3:49 pm


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Dan74
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Dan74 » Mon May 07, 2012 3:55 pm

You mean it's good to mean the same thing when using the same word? ;)
_/|\_

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ground
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby ground » Mon May 07, 2012 4:05 pm


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Jaidyn
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Jaidyn » Mon May 07, 2012 5:52 pm

Response to dharmapasschakra:

I am glad you share your thoughts. Even if you are enlightened or not I find many of your thoughts to be interesting (but some of them I am unable to follow).

Fooling yourself or not, I can fool myself or not in reaction to your claim. We really have to look for ourselves I guess.

In a recent thread they quoted Ajahn Chah: "I am always talking about things to develop and thing to give up, but really, THERE IS NOTHING TO DEVELOP AND NOTHING TO GIVE UP." viewtopic.php?f=16&t=12110

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Jaidyn
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby Jaidyn » Mon May 07, 2012 6:27 pm

One question, dharmapasschakra:

Dan74 wrote: "This is one of the oldest misunderstandings of the Dhamma. One of the oldest fallacies. You don't have to do anything. So you just proceed as the same deluded dysfunctional slob full of craving and aversion, except now you fool yourself into thinking that it's all OK."

Claiming to have reached enlightenment, do you still "proceed as the same deluded dysfunctional slob full of craving and aversion"? I specifically ask about your state of craving and aversion.

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polarbear101
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Re: The most funny part of enlightenment is. It's not needed, af

Postby polarbear101 » Mon May 07, 2012 6:49 pm

woud you please formulate your philosophy of enlightenment a little more thoroughly dhammapasschakra
Last edited by polarbear101 on Mon May 07, 2012 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."


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