I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby Ayu » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:05 pm

Ah :smile:
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:13 pm

Seishin wrote:I have a genuine question which I'm interested in hearing other peoples ideas and answers;

In the Sutras, Nirvana is described as a birthless/deathless beyond the realm of samsara of birth and death. I understand the 'moment-to-moment' idea of rebirth and that Nirvana, in this instance, is to be free from the changing clinging ego and is born and dies from 'moment-to-moment'. My question is though, with the above idea of rebirth, wouldn't death bring about 'Nirvana' (ie being free from the birth and death of the 'I' in moment-to-moment)?

Gassho,
Seishin


Again, the dilemma here is a subtle belief in the existence of a self.
Suppose you write a book, and the book is reprinted, and read by people for many years after you have died.
Did the book suddenly disappear when you died? Did the ideas you expressed in the book die?
No, they re-emerge in the mind of another person, the one who reads that book
because the causes are there for that to happen (more people are born and read, and more books are published, etc.)
But if those conditions do not arise, or if you had never written that book,
then that would not happen in the future.

Likewise, when you die, everything that you have "put into motion", so to speak,
continues as long as the conditions are there.
Some would argue that when the physical brain dies, then the conditions are not there.
That view is based on the idea that the elements in the physical brain cognitively witness their own chemical activity,
which is essentially saying that a the brain thinks, "I am a brain", except that it goes through the complicated process of creating a "me" character first.
A sort of performer, playing a role, who imagines possession of a brain and says "my brain".
It is the theory that the brain produces the experience of thought.
But if the brain produces the person, how can the person say '"my brain"?
Shouldn't it be the other way around?

It's like saying that the impersonal circuits and hard drive inside a computer
imagine themselves to be the user of the computer.
The brain certainly produces neurochemical interactions and electrical charges and so forth
that are experienced as sounds, as emotions, and as dreams and abstract ideas.
But who is the one interpreting that chemistry as "personal experience"?
This is the question Buddhism raises.
And it answers that nothing exists (meaning being an indivisible, finite cause)
which can be identified as that "who" .
It is merely the ground of awareness arising with phenomena
and when that awareness arises in a confused way, you have beings trapped in the samsaric projections of their own thoughts (which is the essence of karma)
And the thing to keep in mind is that karma and rebirth are only happening as aspects of confused mind.
When the mind is no longer confused,
and when awareness arises unobstructed, you have buddha.

"post mortem" rebirth means what?
the results of causes previously set into motion. That's all.
It's not 'reincarnation' of a self.
.
.
.
Last edited by PadmaVonSamba on Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby Seishin » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:23 pm

And I don't disagree with that. But there are those who believe that this process continues after this formation of aggregates (ie Seishin) has dissolved, and there are those who believe that this process ceases to continue after this formation of aggregates has dissolved. I am asking, the second camp what they believe vis-a-vis my question regarding moment-to-moment nirvana.
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby Jikan » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:33 pm

Seishin wrote:
Probably no surprise, but this is how I've been taught also.

What I'm struggling with is if there is no post-mortem rebirth, and nirvana is being free from moment-to-moment rebirth, isn't death equivalent to nirvana in this instance?


Oh, now I follow you.

It seems to me that the teachings of karma & dependent origination fall apart entirely if one is completely unwilling to accept the possibility that there may exist something outside our very limited capacity to think and reason, which is to say, world systems apart from this one, lives beyond and before this one, &c.

But I'm not the one who needs to answer this question, as I'm not among the rebirth-deniers.
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby Seishin » Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:36 pm

Yes, sorry for not making it clearer to start with :emb:
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby TaTa » Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:57 pm

This seems like a go thread to post this.




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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby Sariputta » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:32 am

Is being in a coma, where one has no consciousness proving that afterlife is fake? I am arguing with an atheist and he constantly keeps bringing up this point to prove that consciousness ceases after death.
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:43 am

Sariputta wrote:Is being in a coma, where one has no consciousness proving that afterlife is fake? I am arguing with an atheist and he constantly keeps bringing up this point to prove that consciousness ceases after death.



He has no idea if there's consciousness there or not, his whole argument rests on the conjecture that "consciousness" is only blips on a screen and measurable brain functions, a claim that has some serious holes philosophically.
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby duckfiasco » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:07 am

Consciousness is one of the five skandhas, subject to impermanence, not-self, and suffering.
Namu Amida Butsu
The Perfect Way knows no difficulties
Except that it refuses to make preferences;
Only when freed from hate and love,
It reveals itself fully and without disguise.
- Sengcan (tr. Suzuki)
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Re: I have some proof here that there's no afterlife

Postby plwk » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:45 am

Over at Dhamma Wheel someone wrote:

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:http://atheistforums.org/thread-21098.html
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=14140&view=unread
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum ... #pid386773
Very likely, this is a drive by posting. Gandy will probably not again darken our door.


So gandy is an atheist spreading the Bad News :jumping: man thats hilarious.
Next theyll be going door to door in cheap suits :rofl:


Why is it that some atheists feel the need to proselytize? I know why Christians proselytize; they want to help people by saving them from the lake of fire. I know why Muslims proselytize; there are no infidels in paradise; but why would an atheist feel the need to proselytize? It is just this one life (according to them), who cares if people waster their time in churches, temples, mosques; what concern is it to them?

Because, some of them are quite evangelical about wanting to save us from the gods, buddhas and ceiling cats
Because, some of them care so much about truth and facts that they feel others should likewise too
Because, some of them want something to do on a Sat, Sun and public holiday
Because...
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