the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:07 am

beans and nuts... but, then you've got the phytate issues, so I guess you better soak everything.

That's a pain, though, so how about potatoes?

I used to make the mistake of eating plenty of oil when I was a vegan. I'd just drizzle some EVOO on my salad and grind up some himalayan salt. Really great on salad. However, I finally realized way too late that too much oil makes food go right through you undigested for the most part. So, not really healthy, either. You've got to think about phytates, fats and oxalates interfering with your nutrition absorption.

The crappy thing about trying to be a vegan is trying to follow the advice of different vegan blogs that emphasize various "nutritional powerhouse" foods. The last few years of my veganhood I was eating tons of these "nutritional powerhouse" foods to try to really make sure I was eating healthy, but I had pains in my joints and kidneys from the oxalates in my kale, spinach and hemp seed protein. I was using too much "good fat" EVOO on my salads and thus crapping it right out a half hour later... and when I was a raw food guy, I was sprouting nuts and beans to reduce the phytates, but the raw beans weren't doing my digestion any good and the raw nuts tasted like crap, so it was like phytates or no phytates, the protein portion of my diet wasn't doing me any favors.

But, I digress. Beans, nuts, potatoes and other starchy vegetables and fats will help you put on weight.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:27 am

flavio81 wrote:- Soy burgers, the more the better


Soy is one of the most heavily genetically modified and pesticide-sprayed plant foods available, not to mention the hexane it is often processed with. The labels "organic and GMO free" on anything soy is pretty much a joke. You've also got the weird unfermented/fermented/MSG/phytoestrogen issues in soy products that you don't find elsewhere. Edensoy makes a valiant effort on their website to kill all the negative press out there for their particular soy products, at least, but they really don't address the pesticide issue. That's because if soy isn't sprayed with massive amounts of pesticide, it will not survive the pests. Hemp seed is naturally insect repellent in comparison, but unfortunately hemp seed oxalate content is through the roof. Still, I'd opt for a hemp seeds and nuts over soy any day. Soy is pretty much garbage.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Jainarayan » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:47 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:...it probably is contaminated with antibiotics and growth hormones.


Just a clarification here. Growth hormones are peptide (protein) hormones that are broken down in the stomach into their constituent amino acids, no different than amino acids from a steak or a soybean. Insulin is one such peptide hormone, hence the need for injection. It would be digested and never perform its job if taken orally. The same applies to any mammalian growth hormone; they must be injected to survive digestion. In fact, insulin and mammalian growth hormones differ by only one or two amino acids. So the issue of growth hormone is a non-issue and a false argument.

Carry on. :smile:
Worthy, wise and virtuous: Who is energetic and not indolent, in misfortune unshaken,
flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273
User avatar
Jainarayan
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:53 pm

Jainarayan wrote:
Thrasymachus wrote:...it probably is contaminated with antibiotics and growth hormones.


Just a clarification here. Growth hormones are peptide (protein) hormones that are broken down in the stomach into their constituent amino acids, no different than amino acids from a steak or a soybean. Insulin is one such peptide hormone, hence the need for injection. It would be digested and never perform its job if taken orally. The same applies to any mammalian growth hormone; they must be injected to survive digestion. In fact, insulin and mammalian growth hormones differ by only one or two amino acids. So the issue of growth hormone is a non-issue and a false argument.

Carry on. :smile:


Interesting. I remember reading about that when HGH and HGH Secretagogues first hit the market back in the 90s. Or when I first noticed them and decided to Google about it. They were also advertised on tv as Hollywood's fountain of youth secret. But, if you searched online, you saw that people were like, "eh, no. If it goes through the stomach, it ain't happening" and this was supposedly overcome with the Secretagogues which you ingested and which caused your body to produce HGH (supposedly, likely b.s.).
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby Jainarayan » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:10 pm

Yes, those secretagogues were a load of crap, even the sublingual variety. They'd have to be pretty powerful (which they weren't) to kickstart the pituitary to produce GH. Moreover, even if they did work, the endocrine system works on a negative feedback loop. Exogenous hormones or analogues will cause the body to shut down its own production. So what's the benefit? Consider the freaky pro-bodybuilders and how the exogenous testosterone causes the boys to atrophy.
Worthy, wise and virtuous: Who is energetic and not indolent, in misfortune unshaken,
flawless in manner and intelligent, such one will honor gain. - Digha Nikaya III 273
User avatar
Jainarayan
 
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 am
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: Gaining weight while beeing vegetarian?

Postby padma norbu » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:54 pm

So, does this mean that the dangers of phytoestrogens in soy beans are one thing we can stop worrying about as far as soy is concerned?
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:39 am

Qing Tian wrote:...
In general (please note this qualification) if someone is diabetic then potato is exceptionally bad for blood glucose levels and control, irrespective of how it is cooked. Although as with most things, moderation is fine.


See this is why advice from anecdotal nancies is totally useless. The average modern person will spends lots of time on useless trivia but avoid learning anything that could improve their lives. Carbs from vegetables like potatoes do not spike insulin like fad diet promoters and meat addicts like to portray. That stupid myth is ruining so many lives both animal and human.

Dr. John McDougall wrote:Sugar, Coated with Myths Sept. 2006
...

Sugar Does Not Cause Diabetes

After eating high-carbohydrate foods you might suspect that all that dietary sugar would cause the sugar in the blood to rise and this might lead to diabetes. That’s what many lay people believe. Even a few scientists have theorized that chronically elevated levels of sugar in the blood might wear out the insulin-producing cells of the pancreas and produce diabetes.11 Actually, this common thinking is incorrect—studies comparing sugar intake with risk of developing type-2 diabetes show people on high sugar diets are less likely to get diabetes.12 There is, however, a strong relationship between red meat consumption and diabetes.13

The lowest rates of diabetes in the world are found among populations that consume the most carbohydrate—for this reason type-2 diabetes is almost unknown in rural Asia, Africa, Mexico and Peru.14,15 However, when these people change to a diet rich in fats and low in carbohydrates they commonly become diabetic. Some of the highest rates of this disease (and associated obesity) are found in Hispanics, Native Americans, Polynesians, and Blacks who have recently adopted the American diet.16


...

The carbohydrates found in whole foods (starches, vegetables, and fruits) are much healthier to consume than refined sugars for a person wanting to prevent or cure type-2 diabetes for a variety of reasons—especially because of the adverse effects on weight gain and blood cholesterol and triglycerides of sugars compared to starches (more in next month’s newsletter). A high carbohydrate, vegan diet, has recently been shown to help diabetics stop medications and improve their overall health.20 (See my August 2006 newsletter)

...

11) Koyama M, Wada R, Sakuraba H, Mizukami H, Yagihashi S. Accelerated loss of islet beta cells in sucrose-fed Goto-Kakizaki rats, a genetic model of non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus. Am J Pathol. 1998 Aug;153(2):537-45.

12) Janket SJ, Manson JE, Sesso H, Buring JE, Liu S. A prospective study of sugar intake and risk of type 2 diabetes in women. Diabetes Care. 2003 Apr;26(4):1008-15.

13) Song Y, Manson JE, Buring JE, Liu S. A prospective study of red meat consumption and type 2 diabetes in middle-aged and elderly women: the women's health study. Diabetes Care. 2004 Sep;27(9):2108-15.

14) Kitagawa T. Increased incidence of non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus among Japanese schoolchildren correlates with an increased intake of animal protein and fat. Clin Pediatr (Phila). 1998 Feb;37(2):111-5.

15) Llanos G. Diabetes in the Americas. Bull Pan Am Health Organ. 1994 Dec;28(4):285-301.

16) Egede LE, Dagogo-Jack S. Epidemiology of type 2 diabetes: focus on ethnic minorities. Med Clin North Am. 2005 Sep;89(5):949-75, viii.

...

20) Barnard ND, Cohen J, Jenkins DJ, Turner-McGrievy G, Gloede L, Jaster B, Seidl K, Green AA, Talpers S. A low-fat vegan diet improves glycemic control and cardiovascular risk factors in a randomized clinical trial in individuals with type 2 diabetes. Diabetes Care. 2006 Aug;29(8):1777-83.


Dr. John McDougall wrote:Americans are getting fatter-and dying from it!
...

A study published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (vol. 66, p. 1264, 1997) by the department of biochemistry at the University of Sydney, Australia, found that beef raised insulin levels more than white pasta and that fish raised them more than whole-grain bread. When compared with rises in glucose levels, beef raised insulin levels 27 times higher than brown rice did!

Another important study showed that a high-complex-carbohydrate diet lowered insulin levels. In 1992, James Barnard, from the department of medicine at UCLA, published a study on the effects of such a diet, along with exercise, on hyperinsulinemia.[11] After three weeks, adult-type diabetics and people identified with insulin resistance experienced a 30 percent reduction in insulin levels.
They also showed a significant reduction in triglycerides (26 percent), cholesterol (22 percent), and weight (body mass index 4 percent).

Furthermore, the state of insulin resistance that the authors of these diets claim causes obesity is actually caused by obesity.[12] The fatter you become, the more insulin resistant you will become-for one important reason: Insulin resistance is an adaptation that helps people avoid becoming even fatter-by reducing the effectiveness of insulin so it becomes less efficient at fat storage. It's a protective mechanism!

...

11. Am J Cardiol, vol. 69, p. 440, 1992
12. Cent Eur J Public Health, vol. 7, p. 122, 1999


Here is the study he did not cite that showed that when adjusted beef consumption raised insulin 27 times more than brown rice:
Abstract: An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods.
Full study (PDF)

In another post you stated what you allegedly ate, so I will list what is likely the majority macro-nutrient for each meal:
-- toast (soy/linseed)(mostly carbs)
-- coffee (no sugar, splash of milk)(probably most fat calories from the milk, and btw coffee with milk is what will really raise your blood sugar)
-- enough salad (no dressings) to feed 4 people for lunch with a handful of raw almonds(probably mostly carbs depending on the amount of almonds)
-- usually rice or noodles of some sort - although I only have 1/2 a cup of cooked rice - +lots more veges(mostly carbs)
-- probably under 400g of meat a week)(mostly fat +protein)
-- diet soda on occasion(mostly carbs from sugars)

So basically you are eating the majority of your calories from carbohydrate sources from what you self report(which is notoriously inaccurate) but saying you are on a "lowered carb diet". You may be eating less calories than before, or calorie restriction, but you are not on a lowered carb diet, because the majority of your calorie intake is carbs, thus you are actually self reporting you are on a high carb diet, which is actually the ideal macro-nutrient balance for humans. This is another reason why it is useless to take advice from anedoctal nancies, who anyway, cannot identify what a carb is, let alone be expected to be nutritionally literate.

Qing Tian wrote:PS. I too would suggest that Thrasymachus is banned from this thread. Frankly speaking I am unsure of his purpose on this site. I don't recall seeing a single positive, encouraging post of his. While this extreme negativity is often educational it is also largely unwelcome.


I am the only actual vegan posting on this thread, let alone the only one who is not the nutritional and dietary equivalent of the Flat Earth Society. There is no credentialed vegan author, clinician or even guru who is advocating low-carb, because it is useless and from the Dark Ages of nutrition. Instead you would rather have pseudo-science loving confusionists chiming in with anecdotes, but anyway giving every indication that not only are they ignorant of the dietary research literature but they are over-weight and likely suffering from other health issues(since contrary to the made up story earlier in this thread about people with excess weight on their waist being more physically fit, they are less so and more apt to develop almost every chronic disease and ailment).
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:20 am

I deleted what I originally wrote. Some arguments are just too tiresome.

Thrasymachus. My diet is not low-carb, but compared to what I was eating before my diagnosis of diabetes it is unequivocally lower-carb.

This is not an imaginary change or attributed to any other of the personal insults you like to bandy around. It is a fact. That I have lost a lot of weight AND regained normal BG regulation can be either directly or indirectly related to this dietary change - but related it most certainly is!

I guess I should have been clearer from the start.

And I'm not even arguing for or against veganism - although it is one diet of many and certainly does not historically represent anything approaching a 'diet of convenience' (i.e you eat what you can get) which, if you go back before farming, was likely the commonest type of diet.

Done.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:45 pm

Qing Tian, you're talking to a guy that assumes anyone with a contrary opinion is a desperate liar, so there's no point; you are completely correct that it is a tiresome waste of time to argue with this guy. I wonder with the OP thinks of Thras's contribution to this thread.

I just want to repeat these resources once more...

Here is a forum for Veggie low-carbers:
http://forum.lowcarber.org/forumdisplay.php?f=109

And here's a low-carb vegan Pinterest board:
http://www.pinterest.com/search/pins/?q ... rb%20vegan
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:37 pm

Is there such a thing as veganism induced psychosis, or VIP?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1454
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:29 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Is there such a thing as veganism induced psychosis, or VIP?


:applause: :applause:
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
 
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:55 pm

Qing Tian wrote:My diet is not low-carb, but compared to what I was eating before my diagnosis of diabetes it is unequivocally lower-carb.


Oh man, not here again, after I clearly explained to you what is going on and gave you references to the research literature, you are now trying to present carbs again as some risk factor for diabetes, thus they need to be lowered(which you are not doing anyway from what you are self reporting). The research shows the opposite:
Sluigs et al. wrote:Pubmed: Dietary intake of total, animal, and vegetable protein and risk of type 2 diabetes in the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-NL study.

...

RESULTS:
During 10 years of follow-up, 918 incident cases of diabetes were documented. Diabetes risk increased with higher total protein (hazard ratio 2.15 [95% CI 1.77-2.60] highest vs. lowest quartile) and animal protein (2.18 [1.80-2.63]) intake.Adjustment for confounders did not materially change these results. Further adjustment for adiposity measures attenuated the associations. Vegetable protein was not related to diabetes. Consuming 5 energy % from total or animal rotein at the expense of 5 energy % from carbohydrates or fat increased diabetes risk.

CONCLUSIONS:
Diets high in animal protein are associated with an increased diabetes risk. Our findings also suggest a similar association for total protein itself instead of only animal sources. Consumption of energy from protein at the expense of energy from either carbohydrates or fat may similarly increase diabetes risk. This finding indicates that accounting for protein content in dietary recommendations for diabetes prevention may be useful.


This is the last time I am gonna try to explain this to you, since I am not paid to give you or other people who want to be willfully ignorant, advice. There are three macro-nutrients: carbohydrates, fats and proteins. For you to be eating a "lowered carb diet" as you term what you think you are doing, you would have to displace carbs from your diet for another macro-nutrient group, which is not what you are doing from what you self reported. You may be exercising portion control or calorie restriction, which is not the same, because the majority of your calories consumed actually come from carbs, thus it is not low-carb or even "lowered carbs". So what you are doing is giving these low-carb ninnies who likely cannot lose weight and maintain it for a year period like you self-report, ammunition for their dangerous advice given in this thread.

@For the low carb "flat earth club",
Here is an example of the "best" research low-carb money can buy:
Weight Loss with a Low-Carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or Low-Fat Diet

However, that study was totally manipulated and did not hold under the heavy scrutiny and criticism it received. Perhaps the most damning comment of criticism:
Kirsten Moller. et. al wrote:Corrections

...

Shai et al. report that either a Mediterranean diet or a low-carbohydrate diet was an effective alternative to a low-fat diet in terms of weight loss. Absolute values for the energy intake before and after the intervention are not given for any of the groups. However, the data provided in the article suggest that the weight loss in the low-carbohydrate group may have been simply a hypocaloric effect, even though the authors state that the energy intake in this group was not restricted. Thus, if the daily intake of carbohydrates was no more than 120 g (equal to 500 kcal), as stated in the Methods section, and if the fraction of the energy intake provided by carbohydrates was around 40%, as stated in Table 2, then the total daily energy intake in the low-carbohydrate group must have been no more than approximately 1250 kcal, which is significantly less than the daily intake targeted for the two other groups.

...


Meanwhile the "low-fat" group which was actually 30% fat(thus not low fat, since it is not lower than standard dietary recommendations for fat intake at 20-35% of calories, rather it is at the high-end of that spectrum) was targeted at 1500 calories for women and 1800 for men, and the Mediterranean diet had the same calorie target and even more fat intake at 35%.

That is why all the low-carb advocates on this thread give every hint of actually being overweight and failing to maintain weight loss. Even the best researchers low-carb money can buy are pulling such shenanigans and comparing their preferred diet with less than 1250 calories, which is way too low for anyone to maintain indefinitely. Hence since this is how low-carb diets work, by extreme calorie restriction(and sickness), you see low-carbers frequently gaining all the weight back when they cannot maintain that low-level torture.

I really feel sorry for the low-carbers in this thread... You guys need help with your food addictions and confirmation biases.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:33 am

Not once have I given a causative link between carbs and diabetes. I have stated that in lowering my carbohydrate input I have noticed that my BG levels are now within normal limits. This correlation is interesting, but but not once have I stated a causative link. Please read this statement over and over again, as I cannot make it any plainer. If you do not understand these words I would seriously suggest you get help.

My carb intake was THIS BIG and now it is THIS BIG. This is, by ANY view, a definition of LOWERED.

I am not looking to you, Thrasymachus, for advice on anything. I was merely presenting my personal experience without prejudice.

Yet, as I am here replying to another bout of your spiteful verbal diahorrea, despite myself at that, I am going to ask: WHY ARE YOU A MEMBER ON THIS FORUM? What is the context of your Buddhist practice?

I will not further this 'debate'. As the saying goes, "You cannot reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into".

PS. Perhaps you should also state - for the record - excatly what is your area of recognised and qualified expertise.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:42 am

dzogchungpa wrote:Is there such a thing as veganism induced psychosis, or VIP?


Maybe... http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evo ... -your-mind
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:10 am

Qing Tian wrote: I have stated that in lowering my carbohydrate input I have noticed that my BG levels are now within normal limits. This correlation is interesting, but but not once have I stated a causative link.


Again if you would have exited the realm of the "Anecdotal Annies" for a serious approach, you would have known why: hint, it has nothing to do with high carbohydrate intake or carb intake(other than generally the more complex carbs, the lower your blood glucose and weight, since you are displaying an overload of protein and fat from animal sources).

Effect of Weight Loss With Lifestyle Intervention on Risk of Diabetes
In that study weight loss was the dominant factor in reduced diabetes incidence.
The effect of weight loss on fasting blood sugars and hemoglobin A1c in overweight and obese diabetics
and non-diabetics(PDF)

Those who lost weight dropped their fasting blood glucose levels.

This is well known in research literature, that losing weight improves almost all biomarkers like fasting blood glucose, instead using your breathtaking anecdotal approach, you would have us believe this is associated with carbs.

Qing Tian wrote:My carb intake was THIS BIG and now it is THIS BIG. This is, by ANY view, a definition of LOWERED.

Really? I feel like I am the one who has to explain things like to children, because you lot insist on believing all sorts of made up nonsense and popular myths that are around, yet you have the temerity that my beliefs which I can back up, are not based on reason and yours which you cannot and have to thus resort to passive aggressive demands of banning another member.

I am the only vegan posting in this thread, yet you would have me banned. I am the only one who actually doesn't get his dietary advice from comedians(Fat Head), celebrities(Hugh Jackman, Drew Carey), advise nonsense like "look at bodybuilders"(they are all on winstrol, dianabol, etc.). This is serious business: 70% of Americans are overweight, 35% are obese, the average American needs 4.5 medications! No wonder why this dangerous country full of people destroying themselves slowly are also destroying the entire world with their vast imperialist endeavors.

Now since you lot love anecdotes:
-- most people I know whine if they have to walk even 3 blocks away
-- both of my neighbors to the left of my house are obese, and since they are sedentary and eat to much, their child is now obese
-- every fat person I know complains about their weight, says they are trying to lose it, and they never do on the long-term
-- recently two people I know brought their one year old over and they feed him ground rice and ground beef(which even the mainstream is not enough dumb enough to do, Gerber and other big companies sell ground fruit and vegetables for babies). No surprise that baby has a gut and is overweight right out of the starting gate, like her parents.
-- late last year I bought two racquetball rackets, no one in my social circle will actually play as most Americans are very sedentary and lazy(but they will whine about health problems and weight...). I would have to post an ad on craigslist to find a partner... That is the USA...

This society is profoundly sick. What you guys would have us do is focus on anecdotes from ill-disciplined people who lose weight or temporarily lower their blood glucose(during this period of weight loss), when it is really too simple: 1) move your ass 2) eat whole, minimally processed, plant foods. Only rich societies predicated on global imperialism like the Anglosphere, Western Europe and their allies have the luxury to have populations of massively obese and chronically sick people(ok the colonized world is sick, but from poor sanitation which they would do something about if the imperialist nations full of the fat and whiny did not have them in debt spirals). The people who can only afford rice and tubers like potatoes for their majority of their calories, don't have these problems. If there was a social network called "Honest Book" it would mostly read: "Woke up. Shitted. Ate. Went to work. Ate again. Work is over. Mooped on the couch. Ate again. More tv this time on the bed. Slept." And just repeat, everyday. Instead we have Facebook where people try to only post the glamorous parts of their lives, thus they are trying to live in the projection of what they think others want to hear. Similarly everyone I know who is trying to lose weight is always willing to share how they exercised(just barely) but they are not as ready to share their failings. This is the problem with the low-carb crowd: a lot of anecdotes about improved bio-markers which researchers know is from the weight loss. But the low-carb crowd generally cannot keep the weight off, so it is all moot. Perhaps the most frustrating thing is you are not even doing low-carb or "lowered carb"(nonsense you made up) yet believe in that bunk and care to defend it.
User avatar
Thrasymachus
 
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:28 am
Location: Dover, NJ

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:35 am

Scenario One: I eat 10 slices of bread.

Scenario Two: I eat one slice of bread.


10 is more than 1.

1 is less than 10.

Therefore if I once indulged Scenario One, and now indulge Scenario Two, I have reduced my intake of bread... i.e. it is a lower amount. [NOTE: I have not replaced the 9 slices with anything else]

Simple, really.

I have no doubt that my diabetes is beneficially influenced by my loss of weight. My loss of weight was achieved by cutting calories. The calories I cut were ALL in the carbohydrate food group. Funny that...

Thrashymachus, I wish you well on whatever journey you are on, and that you may find some measure of contentment if not happiness.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:19 pm

It's funny just how much of what I have posted has gone completely unaddressed by the resident troll here.

Two terms sum up what is going on here (well, 4 if I want to include "projection" and "hypocrisy"):
Confirmation Bias:
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/ ... tion-bias/
The Backfire Effect:
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/ ... re-effect/
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
User avatar
padma norbu
 
Posts: 2000
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:59 pm

:good:
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
User avatar
Qing Tian
 
Posts: 167
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:18 pm

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Nemo » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:42 pm

This was still a useful thread. I read one of Marc Sisson's books. It had a few good tips. I keep wishing there was a way I could be vegetarian and healthy. Evolutionary biology makes that very unlikely. Where my ancestors are from it was likely 85% of calories came from animals. Agriculture was introduced very recently and their has been no time to adapt. On an island near where my grandfather is from 1 in 250 will literally die without meat as they cannot synthesize carnitine. As I age it gets harder to go without meat and most grains make me somewhat ill.

A few have adapted to agriculture, probably most have not. A very few may no longer be adapted to either as unused genes are often lost. I am amused at how Thras thinks all people are exactly like him in their dietary needs. I wish more research went into finding the secret sauce of making cavemen like me into healthy vegetarians.
User avatar
Nemo
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby dzogchungpa » Tue Oct 01, 2013 7:58 pm

Nemo wrote:I am amused at how Thras thinks all people are exactly like him in their dietary needs.

Don't mess with Trash, he's a VIP.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
User avatar
dzogchungpa
 
Posts: 1454
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dharma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kirtu, udawa and 18 guests

>