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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:34 am 
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The basis for this entire presumption is that there is an intrinsically existent being who comes into being (is born) and ceases being (dies). But Buddhist reasoning of what you are thus referring to as "afterlife" rejects this premise. Instead, rebirth is founded on the principle that no such intrinsically existent being actually exists. Thus, while these 'near death' and 'seeing the white light' experiences, etc. may be described by those who experience them as evidence, and even though such a description is found in what is clumsily referred to as the "Tibetan book Of The Dead", to understand it in buddhist terms, one has to appreciate the context.

This reminds me of a story that can be used to exemplify the shift in outlook.
The day after Halloween, two jack-o-lanterns are discussing what they may be reborn as in their next life. One had been carved with an angry face, the other has always had a foolish expression, and they wondered what "karmic' effect this would have.
From their point of view, this is who they thought they were.
But at that very same time, the Sun, rain and soil are also having a discussion.
The soil says, "it sure is fun manifesting as pumpkins". and the rain says, "what do you want to become next?"
...which of course makes sense here. From their point of view, the pumpkins were not intrinsically existent beings at all, but merely an expression of their own qualities.

Likewise, Buddhism regards the coming together of both physical and mental events which we experience as a "self" as result of causes.

And as an analogy, what we are physically is in fact a brief gathering of elements that were already on this planet millions of years before we were, as we like to say, 'born". But, as with the pumpkins in this story, it is because of our limited point of view that we regard our "selves" as intrinsically existent.

We experience being born and dying as something other than what they actually are, because naturally, we impute a "self' based on that experience. We say "I was born' and "I will die" based on the experience of an "I" which, when analyzed, cannot be found to actually arise independently.

In other words, since there is no intrinsic "me", then no intrinsic "me" is actually born or dies. Only the experience of "me" which is the basis of suffering, arises and ceases, along with physical conditions. When one realizes awakened mind, even though the body dies, there is no 'me' that dies or is reborn. Such is the example of a Buddha. Until then, mind, or awareness, arises continually with conditions. This is samsara.

So, what you are really only offering evidence of, is that no afterlife can be proven when approached from the point of view that an intrinsically existent self exists. And in that assertion, Buddhist theory does not disagree with you.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:13 am 
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Great wisdom from PadmaVonSamba

Totally agree. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:30 am 
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Will wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
gandy wrote:
so how does buddhism reconcile with this?



There is no afterlife, just one long bardo that begins with delusion and ends with awakening.


Sounds a lot like lives.

Sounds a lot like bardo states.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:23 am 
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smcj wrote:
But in terms of disproving it, if they are able to start reviving people that have been cryogenicly frozen, that would be fairly persuasive evidence. But I'm a believer, so my understanding would simply have to adapt to accommodate the new data.


that's not going to happen anywhere soon in this century


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:24 am 
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Johnny Dangerous wrote:
There is no empirical evidence for continuity of consciousness that i'm aware of, but there is also no empirical evidence for many, many things that are likely taken for granted in your worldview.


such as?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:29 am 
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KeithBC wrote:
I think that there is a fundemental insecurity there. The fact that others believe differently makes them doubt their own disbelief. It's easier to convert others than to question one's own (dis)beliefs.

Om mani padme hum
Keith


do you remember this previous post you have sent me?

KeithBC wrote:
You failed to prove what you said you would prove. Now quit wasting everyone's time.

Om mani padme hum
Keith


which one of us more insecure really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:31 am 
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smcj wrote:
Presumably. I can't see the workings of karma, but that's the theory.


according to most buddhist schools karma is not a theory

but neither is it buddhist it originates from the craddle of buddhism, hindu culture


Last edited by gandy on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 10:37 am 
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PadmaVonSamba wrote:

In other words, since there is no intrinsic "me", then no intrinsic "me" is actually born or dies. Only the experience of "me" which is the basis of suffering, arises and ceases, along with physical conditions. When one realizes awakened mind, even though the body dies, there is no 'me' that dies or is reborn. Such is the example of a Buddha. Until then, mind, or awareness, arises continually with conditions.


yes
> the body changes it's molecules through your life
> events shape your personality
> your choices have also an effect on your personality

this makes your body and the you in it (the guy that pays the bills and remembers stuff), is an open system which communicates with the world, therefore it's a part of it and is just a pattern on the sea of existence, if viewed from a larger perspective

but there's a rather huge jump from this fact to looking for enlightenment and the rebirth of something that doesn't really exist


Last edited by gandy on Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:21 am 
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gandy wrote:
...just a pattern on the sea of existence


more like a sea of imaginary concepts you have there :tongue:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:22 am 
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futerko wrote:
gandy wrote:
...just a pattern on the sea of existence


more like a sea of imaginary concepts you have there :tongue:


very nice, you know it all

help me with it


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:35 am 
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gandy wrote:
futerko wrote:
gandy wrote:
...just a pattern on the sea of existence


more like a sea of imaginary concepts you have there :tongue:


very nice, you know it all

help me with it


Imagine you are a brain in a jar, plugged into a very advanced virtual reality machine - then all your concepts about personality, the sea of existence etc. were only valid within that virtual reality - what would be the "truth" in such a situation?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:49 am 
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futerko wrote:
Imagine you are a brain in a jar, plugged into a very advanced virtual reality machine - then all your concepts about personality, the sea of existence etc. were only valid within that virtual reality - what would be the "truth" in such a situation?


in this specific case somebody created the machine and that is true

give me new eyes, ears and body and than I shall be able to witness "the reality"

so were are my new eyes and ears and body?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:59 am 
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gandy wrote:
futerko wrote:
Imagine you are a brain in a jar, plugged into a very advanced virtual reality machine - then all your concepts about personality, the sea of existence etc. were only valid within that virtual reality - what would be the "truth" in such a situation?


in this specific case somebody created the machine and that is true

give me new eyes, ears and body and than I shall be able to witness "the reality"

so were are my new eyes and ears and body?


You're talking about knowledge, but I asked about truth... In other words, even if all the "content" of your experience was called into question, the "structure" would remain the same.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:07 pm 
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futerko wrote:
You're talking about knowledge, but I asked about truth... In other words, even if all the "content" of your experience was called into question, the "structure" would remain the same.


so you say that no matter how I would try I can't grasp "the truth"

how is buddhism a guarantee that I can through it?

and what it the underlying structure you are talking about?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:22 pm 
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In this thread I say that it isn't necessary to believe in reincarnation in order to understand the meaning of rebirth.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:28 pm 
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gandy wrote:
futerko wrote:
You're talking about knowledge, but I asked about truth... In other words, even if all the "content" of your experience was called into question, the "structure" would remain the same.


so you say that no matter how I would try I can't grasp "the truth"

how is buddhism a guarantee that I can through it?

and what it the underlying structure you are talking about?


The term "view" is quite important in Buddhism, but again, it's not a view from within "existence".

There are no guarantees, simply a map and compass and the chance to discover for yourself.

The structural difference is between mind and the "nature" of mind.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:50 pm 
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futerko wrote:
The term "view" is quite important in Buddhism, but again, it's not a view from within "existence".


if that is true it's hard to apply until you are alive

futerko wrote:
There are no guarantees, simply a map and compass and the chance to discover for yourself.


that's what every other religion says

futerko wrote:
The structural difference is between mind and the "nature" of mind.


if that is true, it means "mind" has no single shred of physicality to itself there would be no physical differences between the brains of regular people and experienced meditators which have been studied with MRI's for years, buddhist monks included and there's a significant difference there and buddhism recommends meditation to clear your brain to be able to perceive "the structure" better

http://www.umassmed.edu/uploadedFiles/c ... ulness.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_fQvcBCNbA


looks like we aren't getting anywhere with this

a. if I'm right I will die it's all lights out and all of this never mattered in the first place
b. if you are right I will be forced by the universe to reincarnate as many times until I will be forced to realize your stuff on my own
c. if neither of us is right, than we both have wasted years on nothing


the only thing in buddhism for which there is proof is mindfulness meditation which is 1% of the teachings and it's not really a buddhist thing in the first place, I think I will keep that and discard the rest of your stuff for which there is no proof


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:58 pm 
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the point is, if the mad scientist unplugged your brain in the jar from the machine, you would probably be so bored that after a while you would start to hallucinate another virtual reality to escape into, and that is "rebirth".

I guess your brain structure may well change once you were weaned off the craving for "existence".

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Gandy wrote:
the only thing in buddhism for which there is proof is mindfulness meditation which is 1% of the teachings and it's not really a buddhist thing in the first place, I think I will keep that and discard the rest of your stuff for which there is no proof.


Good idea! Cheerio and see you later!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:55 pm 
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gandy wrote:
futerko wrote:
The term "view" is quite important in Buddhism, but again, it's not a view from within "existence".


if that is true it's hard to apply until you are alive

futerko wrote:
There are no guarantees, simply a map and compass and the chance to discover for yourself.


that's what every other religion says

futerko wrote:
The structural difference is between mind and the "nature" of mind.


if that is true, it means "mind" has no single shred of physicality to itself there would be no physical differences between the brains of regular people and experienced meditators which have been studied with MRI's for years, buddhist monks included and there's a significant difference there and buddhism recommends meditation to clear your brain to be able to perceive "the structure" better

http://www.umassmed.edu/uploadedFiles/c ... ulness.pdf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_fQvcBCNbA


looks like we aren't getting anywhere with this

a. if I'm right I will die it's all lights out and all of this never mattered in the first place
b. if you are right I will be forced by the universe to reincarnate as many times until I will be forced to realize your stuff on my own
c. if neither of us is right, than we both have wasted years on nothing


the only thing in buddhism for which there is proof is mindfulness meditation which is 1% of the teachings and it's not really a buddhist thing in the first place, I think I will keep that and discard the rest of your stuff for which there is no proof


Hi Gandy,

Here is a easier solution.

Your right.

Its all lights out and all of this never matter in the first place.

Have a great day ahead. :smile:

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Understand no matter what happens, you already had shelter and food, these are enough for you to find happiness.


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