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How did the Buddha reach Awakening? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
PTa
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby PTa » Thu May 03, 2012 1:23 am

"No matter how much we may speak in line with what we understand to be right in accordance with the Dhamma, if the citta that is acting isn't right, how can we be right?"
-Ajaan Mahã Boowa

vinasp
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby vinasp » Thu May 03, 2012 1:54 am

Hi everyone,

This is really all about the difference between the wrong and right eightfold
paths.

The wrong eightfold path (fabricated jhana's) leads to temporary liberation,
which many monks regarded as the only way to experience nibbana in this life.

The right eightfold path leads to non-temporary liberation.

In MN 111.19 Sariputta "entered upon and abided in the cessation of
perception and feeling."

In the next section we read: "He emerged mindful from that attainment ..."

In other words, it is just a temporary state. Sariputta understands that:
"There is no escape beyond." Which means that there is no further state
which can be attained by that method.

But it is not nibbana, and those who attain it are not arahants. This is
the "wrong knowledge" and "wrong liberation" of the wrong tenfold path.

Regards, Vincent.

santa100
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby santa100 » Thu May 03, 2012 1:54 am

From both MN 36 and AN 9.41, everything is the same from 1st jhana up to 4th jhana. Only after achieving the 4th jhana, the Buddha'd seems to provide 2 different approaches to full Awakening:

1. From MN 36, after the 4th jhana, "...when the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of..." (then developing the 3 knowledges)

2. From AN 9.41, after the 4th jhana, "...thinking, "Infinite space," I were to enter & remain in the dimension of the infinitude of space?..." (then developing the 4 formless jhana and the last one, which is Cessation of Perception&Feeling)

So, both suttas share the 4th jhana as the base route, only then did they branch off to either the development of the 3 knowledges (4 form-jhanas, then to Insight), OR the development of the formless jhanas (4 form-jhanas, then to formless-jhana and Cessation of Perception&Feeling). Both seems to be valid approaches to final attainment. That's my two cents on the issue..

Nyana
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 03, 2012 2:06 am


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Alex123
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Alex123 » Thu May 03, 2012 2:17 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

santa100
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby santa100 » Thu May 03, 2012 2:23 am

I'd definitely ask if our great Buddha's still around... :smile: But hey, at least there're more than one way to go to Rome, depends on whether one is Insight-oriented or Jhana-oriented, that's good news..

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retrofuturist
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu May 03, 2012 2:49 am

Greetings Geoff,

Excellent post... and if memory serves, arahantship is possible with only the first jhana, which (if we're talking arahantship as distinct to Buddhahood here) reduces the mandatory set down to:

- knowledge of paṭiccasamuppāda
- jhana

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Nyana
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 am


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Ben
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Ben » Thu May 03, 2012 3:07 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

vinasp
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby vinasp » Thu May 03, 2012 3:33 am

Hi everyone,

How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Through the noble eightfold path.

Which starts by removing the view of self.

How does one remove any view?

By SEEING that it is not true, of course.

What have the jhana's got to do with it?

Regards, Vincent.

Nyana
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Nyana » Thu May 03, 2012 3:57 am


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manas
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby manas » Thu May 03, 2012 4:06 am

:meditate:
Last edited by manas on Thu May 03, 2012 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."

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mikenz66
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 03, 2012 6:11 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu May 03, 2012 7:06 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu May 03, 2012 9:05 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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daverupa
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby daverupa » Thu May 03, 2012 11:57 am


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Alex123
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Alex123 » Thu May 03, 2012 2:54 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

vinasp
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby vinasp » Fri May 04, 2012 2:17 am

Hi Alex,

Interesting thread.

Thanks for pointing out AN 4.41 another sutta which I seem to have overlooked.

You say: "Four Jhānas is one of 4 kinds of samādhi."

Question: Does the term "jhana" on its own have a wider meaning, could it
be a synonym for any kind of samadhi?

Yes, AN 4.41 seems to make these distinctions. The four jhana's are the
first kind of samadhi, and lead to "a pleasant abiding in the here and now."
It is the fourth kind which is said to lead to "the ending of the asava's."

But the path factor right concentration (samadhi) is sometimes explained by
the stock formula for the four jhana's [ see MN 141.31 ], and is
sometimes explained in another way, for example MN 149.10 [Quote.]

"Any view belonging to one who has come to be like this is his right view. Any resolve, his right resolve. Any effort, his right effort. Any mindfulness, his right mindfulness. Any concentration, his right concentration: just as earlier his actions, speech, & livelihood were already well-purified. ..." [End Quote.]

[ Or is this a mistranslation, Bhikkhu Bodhi's does not have "any" but
simply: "The view of a person such as this is right view." and so on.]

However, from AN 4.41 it would seem that only the fourth kind of samadhi
could be the path factor "right concentration" for the noble eightfold path.

As you correctly say:
"The samādhi that does lead to full awakening is described as:" [ the fourth
kind which leads to the destruction of the asava's.]

But could the stock formula for the four jhana's also apply to this
concentration? The stock formula only describes four stages of increasing
concentration.

Does a noble disciple, developing the noble eightfold path, pass through
four stages of increasing concentration?

[ Note. These would be "permanent" attainments, not just temporary states,
a natural concentration - the result of the removal of unwholesome
mental states. We could call them non-fabricated jhana's since no volition
is needed to sustain this concentration.]

The stock formula for the jhana's says: ".... he enters and remains in the
first jhana ...", " ... he enters and remains in the second jhana ...".

Is it a "one way" development, after entering fourth jhana does he ever
leave it?

The stock formula for the four jhana's does not specify the object, nor
does it indicate whether the concentration is fabricated or non-fabricated,
( sustained by volition, or not ), nor is it clear whether these states are
temporary or non-temporary, although it suggests non-temporary.

Regards, Vincent.

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Alex123
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby Alex123 » Fri May 04, 2012 10:16 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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ground
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Re: How did the Buddha reach Awakening?

Postby ground » Sat May 05, 2012 7:02 am



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