the great vegetarian debate

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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:19 am

Actually I am 31, I was 30 last summer in that photo. I just don't look like crap with a puffed up bloated face, hanging skin, etc., unlike most Americans because I never adopted all their negative habits and sloth. When you eat a meat centered diet, and the only plants you eat overly processed or deep fried plant foods like French fries, white bread, ketchup with corn syrup and only meant to garnish or be a side dish to the meat you are promoting inflammation and disease. Which often enough over the years even shows up in the face. Whenever I go out I wonder how hyper-capitalists can abuse themselves so much: coffee shops every few thousand feet, fast food joints everywhere, overweight people everywhere, skin hanging everywhere it is not supposed to. It is little wonder why humans are consuming on a level that would require 1.5 earths to regenerate their consumption and it is projected to require 3 earths to meet our consumption demand by 2050. When no one cares about their own body, they won't care about the environment, other people and animals.

These stupid low-carb diets have been around since the 19th Century, they were ineffective and unhealthy then and remain so now. Don't listen to anecdotal annies like padma norbu on this, he probably isn't even successful as the anecdotal evidence points. Earlier he posted this link full of blind speculation:
birthday shoes wrote:Hugh Jackman (a.k.a. The Wolverine): Lean, Ripped, and Deadlifting 350+ in Toe Shoes
Regardless of how Jackman bulked for has eaten in the past, what Jackman seems to be doing now is compound lifts and a 16-8 split for eating. That's sixteen hours fasting and 8 hours eating. :

Who is desperate enough to search out such crappy advice and point to this blind speculation on Jackman who is most likely chemically assisted when he needs to bulk up and lean out for a movie role, only to immediately shrink post filming? Someone who is addicted to meat, but doesn't have the body type to avoid being fat eating it, yet wants some cheap trick. Almost no one can maintain that nonsense intermittent fasting -- let alone, the fact that is does not really work. I know a meat addict who only ate one big meal a day and starved the rest of the day. He went from quite obese to just obese by doing this. This is what such people consider success. Anyway, he could not keep that up anyway and gained the weight back. It is pure torture doing that to yourself and almost no one can maintain weight loss in that unsustainable matter and even if they do they are punishing themselves.

Just like there is an optimal diet for birds: seeds, for cats: meat, for cows: grass, so to is there an optimal diet for humans: whole, unrefined or minimally processed plant foods. This is what over a century of nutrition research points to. Don't listen to the anecdotal annies of this thread, so much is known about human nutrition that they cannot present low-carb as being healthy or even as an effective long-term weight loss alternative. Restricting calories only works on victims in concentration camps and slaves long-term, not free people and that is the only way these fad carb-phobic diets work in addition to producing sickness which also sheds pounds.

Fat head is a documentary by a lame, failed comedian who constantly tries to crack unfunny jokes and is very opinionated while lacking any knowledge in the subject matter he tries to cover. It is total crap on every level, but that is all the bro-scientists promoting paleo have: failed comedians and mostly fat gurus who lack credentials anyway like Jimmy Moore, Richard Nikoley and Loren Cordain. It is a diet for meat addicts by meat addicts. They don't care how unhealthy it makes them or that they don't lose the weight they claim it makes you lose in the books they hawk.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:26 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Actually I am 31


Great, so you're 10 years younger than me. Shut up.

EDIT:... lulz if you take that seriously. I don't take anything you say seriously and I don't intend to respond to you. But, this is a joke. A joke with some very real undertones, however. But, a joke nevertheless. Child.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:32 am

Maybe when I am 40 you will finally think I am 30.
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Is that supposed to be an insult?

And maybe by then you will have tried 12 different diets unsuccessfully and have thus bro-science peer reviewed them all, and found Paleo's future successor(when it is discredited like Atkins), left you not quite as obese before, you can continue living la vida low carb. (Reality: the only thing new about Paleo is it gives a mythical, invented primitive past to Atkins and the previous low carb fad diets that came before it.)
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:42 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Maybe when I am 40 you will finally think I am 30.
Image
Is that supposed to be an insult?

And maybe by then you will have tried 12 different diets unsuccessfully and have thus bro-science peer reviewed them all, amd found Paleo's future successor(when it is discredited like Atkins), left you not quite as obese before, you can continue living la vida low carb. (Reality: the only thing new about Paleo is it gives a mythical, invented primitive past to Atkins and the previous low carb fad diets that came before it.)
Image


I'm so glad you responded, "bro".

When I need a hot beef injection, maybe I'll give you a reach-around for some advice, bra.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:57 am

Don't try to un-bro this bullshit health bro angle. You are the one who addressed this "bro" health orientation first.... Bro. :shrug:
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:15 am

You low-carbers wanted to take this into bro-science territory since it is all you have to go on to defend your views which involve ignoring human history, epidemiology, nutrition research, etc. In the USA 70% of the people are overweight and 35% obese. These people are always claiming they want to lose weight. Everyone knows several of them, and yet they never lose it. They may for a while, but almost all balloon back up, because they did it via a fad diet using extreme calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, low-carb, etc., which cannot be kept up long-term. So they essentially battle weight constantly their whole lives, simply because they are food addicts.

So you bro-scientists want to take this to the anecdotal annie level and ignore that populations that could not afford automobiles and eating anything other than a majority of calories from whole plant foods, were not overweight even in old age. Being fat is a problem of the spoiled and rich, it is an affliction that only Kings, Queens and nobility could have in the past. So what is going on is people who tried low-carb in the Atkins or Paleo branding, had some temporary success which they couldn't maintain and continue touting it as if it is not just another iteration of the same type of fad that keeps reappearing under different names, promoted by different hacks since the 19th Century. Eventually the purposefully ignorant hoi polloi will learn that Atkins, South Beach, Paleo don't work, and some other dishonest capitalist marketers will sell the same bad advice with a slightly different presentation to the next generation of fools, becoming filthy rich in the process of promoting disease and obesity.

Here someone who doesn't ignore history for anecdotal annies from societies where the majority is fat, points out that societies that ate primarily starches were trim and generally free of chronic illness:

External link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N3KDq3jvCE
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:16 am

good times.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Nemo » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:23 am

I love when people use the purity of their food as a means of feeling morally superior. Overcompensate much?

Why is it so hard to understand that humans have very diverse and often uniquely individual dietary requirements. It should also be stated that health and aesthetics are often confused in most cultures. Eating also has many social and psychological purposes that are also important. To become so extreme as to become a dogmatic fundamentalist looks to me to be somewhat pathological. Perhaps more pathological than having a bmi in the 25 to 30(slightly overweight) range.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:11 am

Nemo wrote:I love when people use the purity of their food as a means of feeling morally superior. Overcompensate much?

Why is it so hard to understand that humans have very diverse and often uniquely individual dietary requirements. It should also be stated that health and aesthetics are often confused in most cultures. Eating also has many social and psychological purposes that are also important. To become so extreme as to become a dogmatic fundamentalist looks to me to be somewhat pathological. Perhaps more pathological than having a bmi in the 25 to 30(slightly overweight) range.


I only eat rice that has been picked under a full moon. All other food will give you hemorrhoids.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Luke » Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:48 am

Okay, bringing this discussion back down to earth to give vegans some tips which they might find helpful...

Here's a very interesting article about the best complex carbs.
http://www.metaboliceffect.com/4-carbs-for-fat-loss/

Some interesting points from the article:
-Based on the experience of physique competitors, the best complex carbs for fat loss are oatmeal, potatoes, sweet potatoes, and brown rice. However, I have seen elsewhere that many bodybuilders prefer to eat white rice, so eat the type of rice which works best for you.

-You can lower the glycemic index of cooked potatoes by eating them when they are room temperature or colder (right out of the fridge).

Anyway, it's probably best to start with only making small changes to your diet. For example, stop eating eating pasta and see how it goes for a week or two. Then stop eating both pasta and bread and see how that goes, etc.

Even if you might not be able to go truly low-carb on a vegan diet, you still find ways to eat the best carbs at the best times in the best ways, so as to minimize their sometimes negative effects.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Nemo » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:22 pm

I would get some pea/hemp protein powder and some organic coconut oil at Costco. The powder is lumpier and not as tasty as whey but it works fine.It is the Webber one. They usually have some kind of energy bar to suit almost anyone's dietary needs. I like the Clif Builder's bars. Non GMO soy and should pass the vegan sniff test.

How do you get your omega 3 though?
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:31 pm

Yeah, sorry for my sudden outburst but this Thrasymachus guy for some reason responds to facts with accusations of me being desperate, so I thought I might as well just act the part. No point giving him any more facts since he clearly ignores them and sticks to his parrot lessons.

Nobody in this thread is advocating eating like Hugh Jackman. Even Hugh Jackman himself doesn't advocate it.

Not sure why regular science would be considered "bro" science except to the person interpreting who obviously has issues with his brother, which Thrasymachus clearly does. Thrasymachus, I am not your "foolish brother" who listens to Living Lavida Lowcarb. Your brother may be a steroid-using musclehead, I don't know. But, that's not me. I grew up a vegetarian, was a vegan for about a decade altogether and opted to eat meat unwillingly.

Thrasymachus, you have ignored every single link I have given you that demonstrates your misunderstandings about low-carb dieting and you respond with lengthy non-fact based diatribes. I think it is time you leave the thread. The topic is low-carb vegan diet.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:41 pm

Low carb vegans should follow this advice:

http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/

Particularly #6 is important. Since your food sources should be REAL food and you're not going to be eating meat OR tofu (right? Tofu is garbage, remember!), you need to properly prepare grains, legumes, and nuts. This is something which is very convenient to ignore, but it's crucial. I believe it is a big reason many vegetarians eventually get so sick that they decide they have to eat meat again (well, this and eating tofu all the time, which is garbage).
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:34 pm

Oh, and btw, for those who haven't heard yet...

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-577832.html

http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-car ... nt=Twitter

And this has been coming for quite some time:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/07FAT.html

^ that's not "bro science." That's just science.

So, If you're worried about cholesterol and brain plaque, you should probably switch to Atkins. :)

I'm not even advocating Atkins, actually. Just a low-carb, high-fat based diet.

This guy's story reflects my own. Like him, my cholesterol dropped dramatically (over 40 points) and I dropped about 25 pounds (185 down to 160) when I made the switch to a low-carb/high-fat diet.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:11 pm

Nemo wrote:I would get some pea/hemp protein powder and some organic coconut oil at Costco. The powder is lumpier and not as tasty as whey but it works fine.It is the Webber one. They usually have some kind of energy bar to suit almost anyone's dietary needs. I like the Clif Builder's bars. Non GMO soy and should pass the vegan sniff test.

How do you get your omega 3 though?


I used to rely on hemp powder because it has a great amino profile, it has Omega 6 and Omega 3, they don't use hexane to break it down (like most other vegetarian proteins) and they don't spray it with pesticides since it is naturally bug-repellent.

The problem I discovered, however, is that it is EXTREMELY high in oxalates. Once I eliminated from my diet, my knees and ankles magically stopped hurting and I magically stopped waking up with pain in my sides having to pee. I still wake up having to pee, but I no longer have pain. Pretty sure hemp seed was doing exactly what they warn about oxalates (leeches calcium from bones, causes kidney stones and painful joints). It really sucks because I was getting most of my protein from hemp seed for a good year or so. It is also thought that oxalates cause grey hair. In general, it sounds like it could really age you before time (arthritis, kidney stones and grey hair? No thanks!)

For anyone who wants to try it despite the oxalate issue, Amazon has Nutiva bulk bags with LESS fiber and MORE protein for a good price. It tastes better, mixes a little better and has plenty of fiber. You already get a LOT of fiber if you are eating a plant-based diet, anyway:
http://www.amazon.com/Nutiva-Organic-He ... ein+powder

Mark's Daily Apple has some good information on hemp (keep it in the freezer!):
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/hempseed ... z2fd8iVsZP

As for soy... well, the amount of soy in a Clif bar isn't going to kill you, but it's probably not doing you any favors, either. It is likely extracted with hexane like most soy and all the other weirdness that comes with soy products like estrogen and pesticides, etc. I know you can find labels that say "non-GMO organic" soy, but I just wonder how realistic that is since soy is one of the most heavily modified plants around and I read once that if they didn't spray it with pesticides, there is no way they could keep it from being devoured by bugs.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0 ... ode=jafcau
http://www.mercola.com/article/soy/avoid_soy.htm
http://wellnessmama.com/3684/is-soy-healthy/
http://thedeliciousrevolution.com/clean ... avoid-soy/

I think the best protein source for low-carb vegans would be to eat some hemp seed, soaked nuts and legumes.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:20 pm

I don't think it's low-carb, but the Thrive Diet is something I've been looking at recently. At least I can make some of the recipes like these almond flax burgers: http://www.nomeatathlete.com/thrive-diet/
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Qing Tian » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:39 pm

Low carb does not mean no carb. As I mentioned (what seems an eon ago) not all carbs are created equal. In the interests of clarity I should point out that in my own diet I restricted refined carbs (by quite a lot actually), so my 'low carb diet' is still chock full of carbs and should perhaps be renamed the Low 'Bad-carb' DietTM

As an aside, fundamentalism serves no-one. Just thought I'd throw that in there. :popcorn:
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:03 am

It is clear that most the low-carbers in this thread need to do some serious reading on the relevant research on nutrition and diet, and avoid bro-scientists promoting Paleo and low-carb businessmen, marketers like Atkins, et al. You guys are in no position to give advice, I seriously doubt most of you even have your own weight and health in control. If you guys want to be unhealthy and addicted to bad foods, do it, be it. Just don't presume to advise others when you cannot advise yourselves on this topic.

Most large populations that have been trim and free of the chronic diseases most Westerners are afflicted with today have consumed a majority of their calories from carbs. What the low-carbers want us to do is become anecdotal nancies and all focus on the intensely unhealthy people around us and their moderate success at losing weight, which they gain back anyway.

@Nemo:
To you it is diet and taste preference, to animals it is their lives. I will always side with the oppressed, genocided animals over whiny, addicted meat eaters, who anyway are likely fat and sick from their addiction anyway and taking several medications, always using antacids, etc., just to cope from day to day.

No humans do not have that diverse health requirements and responses to diet.You would have known this if cared for anything but the anecdotal annie stories of fat meat addicts(who only consume usually overly processed vegetables, grains, and fruit as a garnish or side to the meat):
Dr. Joel Fuhrman wrote:Do Primitive Peoples Really Live Longer?

No. For example, Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population.1

Similar statistics are available for the high meat-consuming Maasai in Kenya. They eat a diet high in wild hunted meats and have the worst life expectancy in the modern world. Life expectancy is 45 years for women and 42 years for men. African researchers report that, historically, Maasai rarely lived beyond age 60. Adult mortality figures on the Kenyan Maasai show that they have a 50% chance of dying before the age of 59.2

...


Also you seem too ignorant to know paleo is low-carb just rebranded with caveman rhetoric and appeal to nature fallacies. But I guess you will continue with your made up reality where being overweight is actually healthy and the epitome of athletic performance and endurance, but of course you cannot cite anything to prove such a laughable claim...

@padmu norbu:
Bro-science is a term that is widely in circulation and which Plant Positive used to label the dangerous charlatans who created the Paleo diet, a product of modern marketing, in his Primitive Nutrition series on Youtube. That guy really destroyed all the arguments of the unqualified bro-scientists who you follow by looking at their sources and arguments and countering them. They frequently cherry-pick minority opinions among nutrition researchers, quote findings out of context, and often enough they just cannot read the data or studies they are referencing properly since they lack the credentials or expertise. He also does the same for other low-carbers and cholesterol denialists like the Atkins crew.

In an archived version of her webpage which she has since removed, Denise Minger, mentioned she was an English major and freelance health writer. Meaning if you pay her to write something, she will. But I guess in the world of bro-science she is better than renowned nutritional biochemist T. Colin Campbell, who used to be biased toward meat and milk products as he was the son of a dairy farmer, but reversed his views during his research career, and the top statisticians working on his team for the China Study.

Gary Taubes is a shallow bro-science journalist who is wrong on almost everything when it comes to nutrition. Plant positive did a lot of work debunking Taubes' bad journalism.

Regarding this article you cited:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-577832.html
I searched two names quoted in it, the first was Dr. Samuel Klein and found he is the "director,Veronica and Robert C. Atkins Center of Excellence in Obesity Medicine at Barnes-Jewish Hospital and Washington University School of Medicine":
http://www.atkinsfoundation.org/2007AR/ ... llence.asp

Another charlatan, Dr. Kevin O'Brien, quoted in your bad article was cited also in 2003 about research that was not publicly available: "None has been published yet, but summaries have been given at medical conferences." Which is followed by this quote by the Kevin O'Brien charlatan: "They all show pretty convincingly that people will lose more weight on an Atkins diet, and their cardiovascular risk factors, if anything, get better".
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/16/news_ ... if_A.shtml

But in that bad article you cited which you likely didn't feel the need to read since it suited your confirmation bias from 2010, we also learn again that: "None has been published yet, but summaries have been given at medical conferences," and then the same quote by the same Kevin O'Brien, "They all show pretty convincingly that people will lose more weight on an Atkins diet, and their cardiovascular risk factors, if anything, get better"!
So from 2003-2012, that is 13 years, the same quote by the same expert, bolstered the claims of the research they are still too scared to publish, because it will not hold up to scrutiny. This is how desperate you low-carbers are. This clearly PAID public relations by the dangerous Atkins Foundation.
Image

Also you are looking for your seventh diet, it seems the thrive fad will be next. Do healthy people who have an acceptable body mass index keep going through diet hula-hoops?

@Qing Tian:
I would not say that as you seem to be a fundamentalist on nonsense. Carbs are carbs. There are certain foods and certain ways of processing foods that should be avoided, that is all. Yes to baked potatos, no to French fries which are glycated and thus have AGEs(advanced glycation end products). Yes to whole wheat, since it has its fiber intact, no to white flour since it is so finely ground it will shoot up the blood sugar. This carb-phobia from the Atkins, Paleo, etc. crowd helps no one, except those making money off selling bad dietary advice.

Low carb means low carb, stop spouting nonsense and misleading people with your dangerous advice if you have no clue yourself.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:09 am

Thrasymachus wrote:Most large populations that have been trim and free of the chronic diseases most Westerners are afflicted with today have consumed a majority of their calories from carbs.

How many large populations that have been trim and free of the chronic diseases most Westerners are afflicted with today have there been, and how many consumed a majority of their calories from carbs?
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:22 am

@dzogchungpa:
I am not your research nanny, I gave enough sources and resources already, ask the bro-scientists who you seem to favor in such exchanges for their bro approved sources.

@For anyone actually interested:
Chronic care diseases are high-blood pressure, constipation, ischemia, glaucoma, diabetes, upset stomach, etc. Every supermarket, pharmacy and convenience store is loaded with antacids and other products for upset stomaches because almost everyone is overly acidic since they don't consume enough alkaline plant foods. If you live in any modernized Western country you know people complaining constantly about such things, almost everyone who is not young is falling apart. What you don't know, because the medical establishment is not interested in challenging economic growth, is that they did it to themselves in almost all cases by their sloth and lifestyle choices.

Many people in the past generally died from communicable diseases that they largely could not avoid due to bad hygiene practices like drinking untreated water, living amongst their untreated sewage, in the streets there used to be much animal feces from horses and because animals that were eaten for meat had to kept, stored and slaughtered locally before refrigeration. Now most people die because of their own lifestyle choices, because they choose to smoke for decades, to drink themselves into sickness, to eat copious amounts of disease promoting meat garnished with denuded plant foods for a whole lifetime, etc.
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