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Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha) - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:13 am

Hi Mike,

Mike said: "I believe that wrong view occurs in several places ..." [ MN 22.15]

Also very interesting! Thanks Mike.

Regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:01 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:46 am

Hi everyone,

The Five Aggregates of Clinging. Here is one way of understanding them.

1. The five aggregates of clinging are also called "identity" - see MN 44.2

"Lady, 'identity, identity' is said. What is called identity by the Blessed
One?"
"Friend Visakha, these five aggregates affected by clinging are called
identity by the Blessed One; ....."

[The word in Pali is "sakkaya" translated as: identity or self-identification.]

2. How does "identity" come to be, arise, originate? The answer is in SN 22.44:

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way leading to the origination of identity and the way leading to the cessation of identity. Listen to that ...
"And what, bhikkhus , is the way leading to the origination of identity ?
Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ... regards form as self ...feeling as self ...perception as self ...volitional formations as self ... consciousness as self ... or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of identity. When it is said, "The way leading to the origination of identity", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.

3. So, it is through regarding things as self that identity arises, and it is
by not regarding things in this way that identity ceases.

So it is through regarding things as self that the five aggregates of clinging
arise, and it is by not regarding things in this way that they cease.

The five aggregates of clinging may be just views of self.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:41 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby ground » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:17 am


vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:33 am

Hi kirk5a,

Quote: "No, because self-identity views are abandoned at stream entry, yet
further clinging remains."

Do you know what Pali word is being translated as "abandoned"?

If identity-view is said to be "abandoned", what is meant by this?

Are the views no longer regarded as true? Have they completely ceased?

Does it mean that one has started to remove these views?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:50 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:13 am

Hi everyone,

Regarding form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness as self, or related to self, is said to be the origin of identity.

These passages have the following structure;

"Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ..... regards form as self,
or self as possessing form, or form as in self, or self as in form."
[The same is repeated for feeling, perception, volitional-formations
and consciousness.]

This gives twenty ways of regarding something as self or related to self.
For brevity, I will refer to such passages as: "The twenty ways of regarding
self."

Of course, no one regards self in all twenty ways. Someone who holds the
Annihilationist view will regard form, feeling, perception, volitional
formations and consciousness - as self. This is identification, form is self.

Someone who holds the Eternalist view will regard self as possessing form,
feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. This is
appropriation, form belongs to self.

The set of "twenty ways of regarding self" is intended to cover all
possible situations.

So, these ways of regarding which are the origin of identity represent both
identification and appropriation, and both of these lead to/involve clinging.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby ground » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:13 am


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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby piotr » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:30 am

Hi all,

Just recently audiodharma.org published new dhamma-talk by bhante Ṭhānissaro, where he explains why the Buddha choose this five categories to describe ordinary experience, i.e. what activity underlies them. It was illuminating for me, so I thought I'd share it with you: http://audiodharma.org/talks/audio_player/3011.html
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:37 am

Hi everyone,

Different Ways of Understanding the Aggregates.

Starting with the simplest one:

1. Form (rupa) means ones actual body, and this is the form aggregate.
Feeling means ones actual feelings, and this is the feelings aggregate.
Perception means ones actual perception, and this is the perception
aggregate. Volitional formations means ones actual conditioning and
volition, and these are the volitional formations aggregate.
Consciousness means ones actual consciousness, and this is the
consciousness aggregate.

So, form, feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness
taken together, are the five aggregates [ panca-kkhandha.]

A "worldling" is said to cling to these five aggregates, and this clinging
is what is meant by the "five aggregates subject to clinging."
[ panc'upadana-kkhandha.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What do you think, is this a correct description of the simplest view of
the aggregates?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:45 am

:) Interesting thread! Thanks.
Last edited by Sarva on Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:10 am

Hi everyone,

Some Notes on Pali Terms For the Aggregates.

The Pali term "panca-kkhandha" is usually translated as "five aggregates,"
but also sometimes as "five groups."

The other key term - panc'upadana-kkhandha - is difficult to
translate, some examples are:

a) Five aggregates of grasping - Walshe 1987
b) Five groups of clinging - Nyanatiloka 1988
c) Five aggregates affected by clinging - Bodhi 1995
d) Five aggregates subject to clinging - Bodhi 2000

Expressions such as "the five aggregates of clinging" can lead to an
interpretation that there are two separate sets of aggregates.

While the expression "five aggregates subject to clinging" tends to the
interpretation that there is only one set of aggregates, which are either
with, or without, clinging.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:59 am

Hi everyone,

The five aggregates and the five aggregates of clinging are described in
SN 22.48 - link to ATI version:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... 2.048.than.

If they wanted people to understand the form aggregate as "ones own body"
then why did they describe it in this way:

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the form aggregate."

[ similar descriptions follow for the other items, feeling, and so on.]

This is a description which includes all the form in the entire cosmos.

It seems, to me, to be intended to cover every form that one can think of,
rather than simply ones own body.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:07 am

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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mikenz66
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:22 am

As a basis for some investigation/discussion, could I wonder aloud whether it is, perhaps, a futile effort to analyse the Suttas as if they were constructed as a logical exposition with exact, constant, definitions?

That could be argued to be extremely unlikely, since they were oral Dhamma talks, designed to liberate, not scholarly essays.

Regarding the current topic, a "common-sense" way of regarding the fact that sometimes the suttas speak of "upādānakkhandha" and sometimes just "khandha" would be that that's just how it came out in various circumstances. Similarly, sometimes (e.g. in the Satipatthana Sutta) listeners are urged to regard both internal and external khandas (or elements, etc), so perhaps the interpretation that these classifications (and the "loka") are only supposed to ever apply to our own personal experience is oversimplified. [Considering both internal and external phenomena makes one aware of the interconnectedness of our world, and is a powerful way of breaking down the concept of self.]
And I could also argue that whether or not one considers various things the Buddha speaks about as being "real" (or not) is not actually particularly important or interesting. [Perhaps sometimes they are, sometimes not?]

I would tend to argue that the really important thing about all these analyses (aggregates, elements, sense bases) is that they are ways of drilling down into our experience in order to see through our conceptual trappings of self. If we take them as primarily a means to that liberation, delivered in various suttas to various audiences, at various times, worrying too much about consistency may well be a futile and pointless exercise. And certainly trying to construct a philosophical position out of the suttas seems to be a recipe for overcomplication and distraction.

I can't necessarily properly defend (or want to completely defend) the questions raised above, but I think they are questions worth asking.

:anjali:
Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:34 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Dan74
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Dan74 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:20 am

excuse the interruption...
Last edited by Dan74 on Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_/|\_

vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:40 pm

Hi everyone,

SN 22.122 wrote: "An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease ..."

This passage is examined by Mathieu Boisvert in his "The Five Aggregates
- Understanding Theravada Psychology and Soteriology." He says:

" ... an arahant can still be characterized by the pancupadanakkhandha."

He quotes Buddhaghosa:

"Although the aggregates of the arahant who has destroyed the cankers
become conditions for clinging in others, when they say, for example,
"Our senior uncle the Thera! Our junior uncle the Thera!," the noble
paths, fruits, and nibbana are not grasped, misapprehended, or clung
to." [ I have simplified this, so it's not an exact quote.]

Boisvert continues;

"This implies that, although those who do not generate any more clinging
(the arahant) have totally eradicated the biases, they still possess
the five clinging-aggregates in the sense that their five aggregates
still constitute a ground for clinging in others." [ page 27.]

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:02 pm

Hi everyone,

Ven. Nanavira's Understanding Of the Aggregates.

Quote: "An arahat while alive, continues to be individual in the sense
that 'he' is a sequence of states distinguishable from other individuals.
Every set of pancakkhandha - not panc'upadanakkhandha in the arahats case
- is unique, and individuality in this sense ceases only with the final
cessation of the pancakkhandha at the breaking up of the arahat's body."

[ I have simplified this, so it's not an exact quote.]

[ Clearing The Path - Shorter Notes - Sakkaya, page 106 ]

From this passage I infer the following points:

1. He thought that the panc'upadanakkhandha have ceased for an arahant.

2. He understood that the arahant still has the pancakkhandha.

3. He thought that the arahants pancakkhandha only cease when literal
death occurs. Note 1.

4. It seems that he may have understood the form-aggregate as being
identical with the physical body.

Note 1. I can't be certain about this, it depends on how he understood
the expression: "breaking up of the arahants body."

Regards, Vincent.


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