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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:06 pm 
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I found this interesting:
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    On one of his missions to Middle India, the Tang diplomat Wang Xuance is reported to have learned from the abbot of Mahābodhi Monastery about a belief among Indian clergy that when corrupt doctrines eventually eclipse the Indic lands, genuine Buddhist doctrines will continue to fluorish in the peripheral east. In other words, after the disappearance of Buddhist doctrines from India, China would emerge as the new Buddhist realm. If this is indeed a true reflection of views of the seventh-century Indian clergy and not a fabrication of the Chinese Buddhists, it would not only explain the attempts by some of the South and Central Asian monks to authenticate the presence of bodhisattva Mañjuśrī at Mount Wutai, but also the increasing number of Indian and foreign monks making pilgrimage to China.


Tansen Sen, Buddhism Diplomacy and Trade The Realignment of Sino-Indian Relations, 600-1400 (Honolulu: Universiy of Hawai'i Press, 2003), 84-85.


Does anyone know of anything similar with respect to Buddhism being transmitted into Tibet?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
I found this interesting:
Quote:
    On one of his missions to Middle India, the Tang diplomat Wang Xuance is reported to have learned from the abbot of Mahābodhi Monastery about a belief among Indian clergy that when corrupt doctrines eventually eclipse the Indic lands, genuine Buddhist doctrines will continue to fluorish in the peripheral east. In other words, after the disappearance of Buddhist doctrines from India, China would emerge as the new Buddhist realm. If this is indeed a true reflection of views of the seventh-century Indian clergy and not a fabrication of the Chinese Buddhists, it would not only explain the attempts by some of the South and Central Asian monks to authenticate the presence of bodhisattva Mañjuśrī at Mount Wutai, but also the increasing number of Indian and foreign monks making pilgrimage to China.


Tansen Sen, Buddhism Diplomacy and Trade The Realignment of Sino-Indian Relations, 600-1400 (Honolulu: Universiy of Hawai'i Press, 2003), 84-85.


Does anyone know of anything similar with respect to Buddhism being transmitted into Tibet?



Yes, there are similar predictions, for example in the Manjushri Root Tantra, if memory serves me correct.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:15 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are similar predictions, for example in the Manjushri Root Tantra, if memory serves me correct.


When approximately was the first version translated into Tibetan?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:27 pm 
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Indrajala wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Yes, there are similar predictions, for example in the Manjushri Root Tantra, if memory serves me correct.


When approximately was the first version translated into Tibetan?


late 10th, early eleventh century.

Here is one such passage, from chapter 24:

།ཀཱ་བི་ཤེ་དང་བག་ཁ་ལ། །ཨོ་ཌི་ཡ་ནི་ཁོར་ཡུག་ཡུལ། །ཁ་ཆེ་དང་ནི་སིནྡྷུའི་ཡུལ། །ཁ་བ་ཅན་གྱི་མཚམས་ཀུན་དང༌། །བྱང་
ཕྱོགས་སུ་ནི་གནས་བརྟེན་ལ། །དགེ་བའི་སྔགས་ནི་འགྲུབ་པར་འགྱུར། །གང་ཡང་སངས་རྒྱས་སྔོན་གསུངས་དང༌། །ད་ལྟར་ཡང་ནི་གསུངས་པ་དང༌། །མ་
འོངས་སངས་རྒྱས་རྣམས་ཀྱིས་ཀྱང༌། །ཞི་བའི་རྒྱུར་ནི་གསུངས་པ་སྟེ། །ཁ་བ་ཅན་རིའི་ནང་བྱུང་བ། །དེར་ནི་ཐམས་ཅད་འགྲུབ་པར་འགྱུར།

    The border lands
    Kā vi she, Bag ga la, O ḍi ya;
    Ka che (Kashmir) and Sin dhu Land,
    all the borders of the Kha ba can (Himalayas)
    and in the north are Sthaviras
    accomplishing the mantras of virtue,
    which all the buddhas of the past said,
    and all the buddhas of the present said,
    and all the buddhas of the future said,
    to be a cause of peace.
    Arising in the mountains of Kha ba can,
    there everything will be accomplished.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:00 pm 
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Since the prophecy was known to be popular in India around 7 AD, could it be possible that by "corrupt Buddhism" the Buddhist monk and Abbotts were referring to the upcoming full fledged Tantric practices that emerged as a sect of Buddhism? Or is it just a coincidence that the time that the prophecy gives for the real Dharma to be extinct in India "when corrupt sects masquerading as Buddhists" emerge, and the time when the hardcore Vajrayana sex practices for fast enlightenment, magical powers, bliss etc started to emerge?

After reading the account of the 14th century Magadhan Buddhist monk Dhyanabhadra, who was a Mahayana monk who traveled and settled to China and Korea (like how it was prophecized), it is clear that the few remaining Buddhist monks in India at that time looked down upon practitioners of Buddhist tantra as inferior or even as heretics. I strongly believe that this was indeed the case.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:02 am 
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Except its a Tantra that makes the prophecy...

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:46 pm 
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The Indian monks who came to Wutai Shan just did their pilgrimage and returned to India mainly. They were still reluctant to stay in China and to help out with translations. I can't cite anything concrete but there are a few articles about Buddhist translations in the Song Dynasty about this.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:43 pm 
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There is, or there used to be back in 1970's and even in early 1980's, a teaching and a story about the indian King Kriti, (maybe it should be King Kirti). It was published in several books, I have read it several times. It was for example in the earlier printings of the Blue Annals. In this story King Kriti sees about 15 dreams, he then asks Buddha about them, who interprets the King's dreams for him. In the new printing of Blue Annals the dream about Dharma's demise in India and its flourishing in the borderlands has been taken away. The dream in question is that the ocean is turbulent in the centre and calm on its edges.
In the ancient Indian geography the central lands are Jambudvipa/India, Africa/Videha, South-America/Kuru and Australia/Godaniya. The borderlands are then the landmasses around these central countries or central continents, i.e. North Asia, Europe and North-America.
The story about the Dreams of King Kriti has been eradicated with utmost care, I can't find a trace of it.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Sherlock wrote:
The Indian monks who came to Wutai Shan just did their pilgrimage and returned to India mainly. They were still reluctant to stay in China and to help out with translations. I can't cite anything concrete but there are a few articles about Buddhist translations in the Song Dynasty about this.


This is discussed at length in Tansen Sen, Buddhism Diplomacy and Trade The Realignment of Sino-Indian Relations, 600-1400 (Honolulu: Universiy of Hawai'i Press, 2003).

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:19 am 
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Indrajala wrote:
Sherlock wrote:
The Indian monks who came to Wutai Shan just did their pilgrimage and returned to India mainly. They were still reluctant to stay in China and to help out with translations. I can't cite anything concrete but there are a few articles about Buddhist translations in the Song Dynasty about this.


This is discussed at length in Tansen Sen, Buddhism Diplomacy and Trade The Realignment of Sino-Indian Relations, 600-1400 (Honolulu: Universiy of Hawai'i Press, 2003).


Good book - in fact, it also has quite a lot to say about the prophesies of Buddhisms downfall in India and how that was interpreted at various times.


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