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Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha) - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:15 pm


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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:49 pm

I thought I recalled an earlier discussion where it was pointed out that the Buddha only uses the aggregate analysis when speaking about non-arahants, and in the case of arahants any analysis is done in terms of sense bases, not aggregates.

Am I recalling correctly? Is there a sutta where the aggregate analysis is applied to an arahant?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:00 pm


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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:46 pm


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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:53 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:16 pm

Hi everyone,

The six internal sense-spheres have ceased for an arahant.

See: SN 56.14 [ not yet available on ATI.]

It is the four noble truths, but the truth of suffering is just the six internal
sense-spheres, all the rest is the same as in the standard version.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby santa100 » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:50 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi's lecture on MN 44 (ref: http://bodhimonastery.org/courses/MN/MP ... MN-044.mp3 ) went over the definition of "clinging" versus "clinging aggregates" at around 51:00 min. to 58:00 min. He also mentioned that enlightened beings still possess the 5 clinging aggregates in the sense that the aggregates were produced by past clinging at around 66:00 min. Hope this helps..

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:54 pm

Hi everyone,

"Bhikkhus, there are these Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of
suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the
cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of
suffering.
And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the
six internal sense bases. What six? The eye base ... the mind base. This is
called the noble truth of suffering.

[ What follows is the same as in the standard version.]

[ Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 1848, part of SN 56.14 ]

[ samudaya is incorrectly translated - as usual, it should be: uprising.]

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:06 am

Hi everyone,

The preceding sutta SN 56.13 is also a modified version of the four noble
truths. It has "the five aggregates subject to clinging" as the truth of
suffering.

Does this mean that the five aggregates subject to clinging, and the six
internal sense bases, have both ceased on completion of the noble eightfold
path?

If so, since they cannot be exactly the same thing, I would suggest that the
six internal sense bases are a part of the five aggregates of clinging.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:12 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:54 am

Hi everyone,

Tilt said: "the five khandhas of the arahant ....."

Retro responded: "But is there such a thing, though?"

My position is as follows:

1. There is an arahant that still has the five aggregates, after the cessation
of the five aggregates of clinging.

2. There is also an arahant for whom the five aggregates have also ceased.

There are two kinds of arahant, the second type is sometimes called
"tathagata".

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:07 am


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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:08 am

Hi Retro,

vinasp wrote: "If so, since they cannot be exactly the same thing, I would suggest that the six internal sense bases are a part of the five aggregates of clinging."

Retro replied:

I don't see why they can't be the same - perhaps you can elaborate further on this point? [ End Quote.]

The five aggregates of clinging include everything - internal and external.

The six internal sense bases, clearly do not include the six external bases.

[It may be that the six external bases also cease, but that this is not said.]

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:21 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:44 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:00 am


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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:09 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:14 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:17 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230


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