Empowerments outside the Lineage

cataractmoon
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:52 pm

Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby cataractmoon » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:10 am

What are the various positions of taking and practicing empowerments outside the Karma Kagyu lineage? I realize teachers hold multiple lineages and am not really interested in the teacher angle. I am more interested in the student angle. Is it wise? Problematic? Harmful? Confusing to practice one Yidam from a lineage that may differ in practice in another lineage?

Thanks!

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4553
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby conebeckham » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:54 am

I think it depends on what you're practicing, and also who is instructing you in practice.

For example, Vajrayogini in Sakya (Naro Khacho) and Vajrayogini/Varahi in Kamstang, are different.....if one is going to practice one of these, you should choose one, and not try to practice both simultaneously. Maybe taking empowerments in both systems is okay, though with the main yidams, such as this one, there's usually some sort of practice commitment.

Same with Dharmapalas, I think.....some Dharmapalas are more specific to a given lineage, others are more "shared." But even then, the details can differ.....a good example from my personal experience is White Mahakala. The sadhana as practiced by Shangpa (and Karma) Kagyu differs from that practiced in the Sakya, I believe.

The bigger question is why one would want to obtain a given empowerment. If it is with the intent of serious practice, and commitment, I would think you'd want to stick with one lineage at a time.

Some traditions stress the actual Empowerment Ceremony as a path--Nyingma in particular--while others stress that, though it's possible to view that way, empowerment is more of a ripening......for most of us.

These are my observations, so take all this with a grain of salt.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
maybay
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby maybay » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:09 am

People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

User avatar
Lingpupa
Posts: 131
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:13 am

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby Lingpupa » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:41 am

All the best
Alex Wilding
"Kathmandu report" at
Blog struggling for rebirth at
Benchen and Back digital edition still on Amazon - see

User avatar
maybay
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby maybay » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:55 pm

I don't know, am I? Just my experience.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 5594
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby kirtu » Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:22 pm



"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Dharmaswede
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:22 pm

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby Dharmaswede » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:09 pm


User avatar
maybay
Posts: 1604
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:12 pm

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby maybay » Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:39 pm

People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

KonchokZoepa
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:14 pm

Chokyi Nyima rinpoche talks about empowerements relatively extensively in his book called - The Bardo Guidebook.

he also says that if you do not generate or have any realization experience during the empowerment, you did not receive the empowerement in its full form or potential. something like that.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo

User avatar
Palzang Jangchub
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:16 pm

Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5265
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby smcj » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:51 pm

Empowerments are fine. Beware of commitments though. Find out beforehand what you're agreeing to. You don't want a lot of baggage.
Don't take me too seriously.

User avatar
Palzang Jangchub
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:42 pm

Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1236
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:32 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4553
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby conebeckham » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:40 pm

Well, there's a Nyingma Chagdrupa, actually, I think in the Jangter lineage....and I think it didn't come from Shangpa--IIRC. I'll try to find it and post a link...

But yes, in general, all the popular Chagdrupa practices, including Gonkar, have Shangpa sources...my point was that there may be different sadhanas out there. Sakya Gonkar sadhana, I believe, differs from the ones practiced by Karma Kagyu folks.

The source can be common, while the sadhana gets changed.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4553
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby conebeckham » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:57 pm

http://www.treasuryoflives.org/biograph ... Dorje/3010

There's a bit here about a Nyingma revalation of Six Armed Mahakala. Also, there's a comment in Kongtrul's autobio about the "Nyingma volume of Chagdrupa instructions" and there's info out there about Jangter's Chagdrupa, which has three faces and six arms (naturally), and is held in higher esteem than the normal "Nyingma Mahakala Supreme" said to be Gonpo MaNing. This Chagdrupa is practiced at Khordong Monastery presently, and I think it came from Rigdzin Godem...so, it's Terma, and not associated with the Shangpa. (Shangpa does have a three-faced Chagdrupa, incidentally...it's pretty uncommon).


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Palzang Jangchub
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:37 am

Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4553
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Empowerments outside the Lineage

Postby conebeckham » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:20 pm

What I think was meant, is that in general, MaNing is the supreme Mahakala emanation in many Nyingma lineages...or so I've heard. So, Jangter presents an anamoly.

But Nyingma Mahakala information in general is pretty scarce. I'd bet, though, that most Kamtsang folks would say Bernakchen is supreme, and his is a terma tradition!


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


Return to “Kagyu”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests