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tathata (thusness, suchness) - Dhamma Wheel

tathata (thusness, suchness)

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jcsuperstar
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tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:21 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: tathata

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:29 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: tathata

Postby stuka » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:48 am


Element

Re: tathata

Postby Element » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:18 am


Element

Re: tathata

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Element

Re: tathata

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jcsuperstar
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Re: tathata

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:09 pm

thanks!
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: tathata

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 10, 2010 11:47 pm

Greetings,

I was just about to create a topic on "suchness", but then I found this one so I thought I'd continue on from here.

Does anyone else use the notion of "suchness" in their practice? How have you found it to be of benefit?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby Ben » Tue May 11, 2010 3:10 am

Hi Retro
It reminds me of the quality of mind when one engages in bare observation when all conceptualization has ceased.
There is the observation of the flow of phenomena and nothing else.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue May 11, 2010 4:55 am

i have a tattoo of it, well tathata and then chen an eng which is how you translate it into thai with the thai letters of both words forming a buddha

Image

this is a pic of it after i first got it so it's all puffy and stuff....

also retro ajahn buddhadasa's book anapanasati discuses tathata in relation to anapanasati have you read it?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby dennis60 » Tue May 11, 2010 11:12 am

If you want a real in depth answer or study on "suchness" go to this web page....there is a pdf file at the bottom to get the whole piece...


Here is the beginning of the thesis.....

(1) Tathata in the Tripitaka, the Buddhist Scriptures and commentaries enables the students to understand that all the compounded things, which are called Five Aggregates. :- (corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness) and the non-conscious matters are Tathata. It means that nobody can change the law of nature. Under the law of nature all things are compounded and must be changed by the law of three characteristics. (Impermanence, State of Suffering, Not-self) Under the law of the three characteristics a thing arises in the primary state, changes in the middle and extinguishes in the end.
The synonyms of the term Tathata, are Avitathata which means certainty, Anannathata which means not being otherwise, Idappaccayata which means all the compuounded things arise from specific conditionality. All these synonyms mean that nothing can arise without any cause and there is nobody to create them. it arises according to its causes and factors.
In addition, Tathata is the wisdom arising to the person who practises insight meditation. It is he who can attain the insight knowledge of the conditioned state of things without their own personal ideas. Thus, the practiser can know that Five Aggregates are of non-essence and not to be attached to. They are always imcomplete, fearful, disadvantageous and full of suffering. Having seen all these conditions, the practiser is bored of all compounded things, has no pleasure in them and finally wishes to be away from them. Besides, he is so impartial that he can be free from the compounded things. this state is called Pannavimutti (Liberation through wisdom). This state is compared with the water on the lotus leaf. It is really called "Nibbana" which is "Asankhatadhamma" meaning the Unconditioned State. This is also called Tathata. In conclusion, both the conditioned state and the unconditioned state are Tathata.
(2) In the Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's thought, Tathata is "Suchness" which means the state of being so and not being other things, and no one can force it. It isas it used to be all the time. Such the state is surely called "Tathata." The explanation of Tathata by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in another way is exactly the explanation of the Idappaccayata (specific confitionality) and of the Paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination Law). These are the laws of reasons. (When there is this, there is that.) He explained that when there is no essence of the confitioned things, there is the impermanence and the change. But such change is in a similar line forever. That is called "Tathata".
Tathata in the Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's thought is not different from what is found in the scriptures. It is really the synonym for the words "Idappaccayata" and "Paticcasamuppada."
(3) Tathata is the state of general law that covers all the confitioned and the unconditioned which are the natural laws and the Buddhist high principles for leading the people to attain Enlightenment. It is directly related to humanity, society, politics, governments, economics and cultures for the security of the nation and the people's happiness.
Therefore, one who can realize the Tathata, can have mental purity, wisdom, lovingkindness, compassion, and patience; and can support human being and society in general. this is true to the Buddha's words as follows :- "walk, monks, on tour the blessing of the many folks. For the happiness of the many folks out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the blessing, and the happiness of deities and men."

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby Pannapetar » Tue May 11, 2010 11:32 am

That's one of the words where I prefer the Sanskrit version "dharmata", because it makes the relation to "dharma" and "dharmakaya" more obvious. I think it is often used in the same sense as the "Tao" of Taoism.

Cheers, Thomas

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby bodom » Tue May 11, 2010 2:32 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 11, 2010 2:48 pm

A Tathagata [meaning any awakened individual] is a seer of what is to be seen, but he does not mind the seen, the unseen, the seeable, the seer. So likewise with the heard, the sensed and the cognized: he thinks of none of these modes of theirs. Therefore among things seen, heard, sensed and cognized he is precisely 'such'. Moreover, than he who is 'such' there is no other 'such' further or more excellent. - AN II 23.

starter
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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby starter » Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:42 am

Hi friend,

In order to understand “tathata”, I used Google Saffuron to search the term and read almost all relevant results. This search led to a tentative conclusion that "tathata” means the firmly fixed nature/law of all things, instead of objectivity or bare observation without conceptualization.

It seems that “Tathata” should be used to penetrate the three characteristics and four noble truths, and to end the suffering by detachment to “self”. “Tathata” should probably not be interpreted and used just for obtaining objectivity without subjective conceptualization—if used in this way, it could lead to no effort for destroying assavas since assavas would be seen as neither good nor bad, and one would think s/he is already enlightened to the highest ultimate truth (which is an illusion).The buddha has taught us to remove conceit of “I” & “Mine” in order to remove our attachment to “self” and break the prison of “selfhood”, and finally uproot the assavas and defilements. His teachings are probably not meant to remove our conceptualization of things?

Concerning the meaning of Tathagata:

“Tathagata” is beyond all coming and going – beyond all transitory phenomena”. Tathagate thus doesn’t appear to mean the one who has reached objectivity and sees things as it naturally is without subjective conceptualization and discrimination.

Metta,

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby Paññāsikhara » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:26 am

In many early teachings, as well as those in the first few hundred years after the Teacher's parinibbana, the term "tathatA" was often closely associated with the principle of dependent origination. This teaching itself is intimately connected with the teaching on absence of self or what pertains to self, often referred to as emptiness. Because the principle of dependent origination in forward (anuloma) and reverse (patiloma) orders covers the entirety of phenomena, ie. the arising and cessation of the world, both dependent origination itself and also "tathatA" were often said to be applicable to all phenomena without exception. Likewise too for the principles of not self or emptiness, which were applicable to all phenomena. (As opposed to impermanence and dissatisfaction, which only had a range of 'conditioned phenomena', leaving aside nibbana for those systems which took nibbana as a phenomena per se.)
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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby Sylvester » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:48 am

Not forgetting also Gombrich's pithy observation about how much "thusness" etc have been squeezed out of this simple term "tathagata", which he suggests should be just given its idiomatic meaning. Have to dig out What the Buddha Thought for details, where he gave an example involving a woman in a picture "citragata nari" = the woman in the picture, rather than the woman which has gone into the picture.

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Re: tathata (thusness, suchness)

Postby ground » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:02 am



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