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Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting - Dhamma Wheel

Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

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mzaur
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Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby mzaur » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:16 pm

Hello,

I am having a discussion with someone who does not believe that enlightenment is permanent and lasting, because he says the mind is impermanent and all phenomena are impermanent. I said that enlightenment is not a phenomena but a realization about the true nature of all phenomena, but this person is still not getting it, because he says the mind is impermanent and so must enlightenment be.

I would like to quote some sutras to support my position that enlightenment is permanent and lasting (even after death). Could someone please offer some? Thank you

:namaste:

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:06 pm



Samyutta Nikaya 43
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Jason
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Jason » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:07 pm

"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" ().

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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Zom » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:30 pm


mzaur
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby mzaur » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:03 pm

Thank you. Very helpful :namaste:
Could you please tell me what 'nirvana is unconditioned' means?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:48 pm


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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:50 pm

Well all conditioned things are imperminent, but nibbana is also called the unconditioned, unborn, uncreated. SN1.8 if I remember of the top of my head, maybe .9 or .10


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

Bagoba
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Bagoba » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:13 pm

"This path is a thorough investigation and understanding of the limitations of the mortal condition of the body and mind. Now you're developing the ability to turn away from the conditioned and to release your identity from mortality." Ajan Sumedho, "Mindfulness, the path to the Deathless."

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:10 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:21 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:23 am


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:07 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:38 am


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:18 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:36 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:01 pm

Also, see Ven Bodhi'sa translation, which is far better than the translation you used.

. . . it leads to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. -- CDB ii 1581, which clearly indicates synonymy.

And see Ven Thanissaro's, which agrees with Ven Bodhi's: "Kassapa, these are the seven factors for Awakening rightly taught by me that — when developed and pursued — lead to direct knowledge, to self-Awakening, to Unbinding."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

You are using Ven Piyadassi's: It conduces to perfect understanding, to full realization and to Nibbana.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

When there are lists such as this in Pali, this indicates terms with synonymous meaning. Different terms for the same things. The first two translations are more accurate than the last one.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 3:02 am

One more point, the Pali of the line in question

mayā sammadakkhāto bhāvito bahulīkato abhiññāya sambodhāya nibbānāya saṃvattati

does not have an "and" in it. It is a list that is accurtately translated by Vens Bodha and Thanissaro.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:28 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:12 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Suttas about enlightenment as permanent and lasting

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:05 am

Because, friend, this is beneficial, relevant to the fundamentals of the holy life, and leads to revulsion, dispassion, to cessation [nirodha], to peace, to direct knowledge[abi~n~ aa], to sambodhi, to nibbana. Therefore the Blessed one has declared it. SN ii 223

A monk who is thus possesses the fifteen factors including entusiasm is capapable of beaking out, capable of sambodhi, capable of attaining the supreme security from bondage [these last four words are used for nibbana]. MN i 104

The Tathagata has awkened to the middle way, which gives rise to vision, which gives rise to knowledge, which leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to sambodhi, to nibbana. And what is the middle way awakened to by the tathagata .... It is the Noble Eightfold Path.... SN iv 330-1

There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, and nibbana. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Friends, this is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge, sambodhi, nibbana. MN i 15


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