the psychology and nature application of wrathful deities

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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:21 am

kirtu wrote:
ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:you say weapon like its a bad thing. sometimes you need wrath when peaceful deities dont work.


If you use a wrathful mantra out of anger it is nothing other than black magic. The wrathful rituals must never be used by any other motivation than compassion.


This sort of fear is, practically speaking, unfounded. Using Vajrayana as black magic is practically speaking almost impossible. Few people can do this and certainly no (or almost no) Westerners (not using deity yoga at least). The requirements are just far beyond the capabilities of most people.


This is a misunderstanding. What I wrote has nothing to do with fear. The negative intention of using a Mantra out of anger will create a lot of negative karma and produce a lot of confusion inside one's own mind. On a beginner's level it is indeed very unlikely that the performed ritual will actually harm anybody else but the angry practitioner himself. But still the negative intention alone is enough to qualify this action as black magic. Not every act of black magic has to be successful.

kirtu wrote:And anyway, after one fails at that, your'd fall into hell for sure as a result of those aspirations.


Yes, exactly. And that alone should be reason enough to warn people not to engabe in such actions, shouldn't it? :smile:
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:37 am

P.S.:

So you can stick your little pins in that voodoo doll
I'm very sorry, baby, doesn't look like me at all


Leonard Cohen, Tower of Song
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby smcj » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:44 am

Probably best to consult a lama and ask what, if anything, is a suitable practice. It could be Green Tara for all I know.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:43 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:i have to say that one of my motivating factors is fear of being killed, and i want to rely on the help of vajrakilaya to purify my mind, my interconnectedness and that way purify others, all that so all is in better condition, less negative forces so better conditions for practicing Dharma.

Vajrakilaya practice will do that as will all deity practice. It just depends on your connection to the deity practice.

also if i want to manifest as vajrakilaya and destroy hostile and self destructive forces. i am doing nothing but benefiting the world.


but aside from destroying negative forces in yourself and possibly benefiting others through interdependence, the level of accomplishment that you are suggesting here is far beyond the reach of most practitioners. Most people will never develop overt, miracle working siddhis. For us, siddhis will be subtle manifestations not overt Virupa or Padmasambhava-like manifestations, to say nothing of something like the magic fights of Ra Lotsawa, etc.




siddhis wasnt in my mind saying what i said. basically i have the faith that by doing the sadhana all that benefit automatically occur by the power of vajrakilaya, not due to my own siddhis.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:47 am

smcj wrote:Probably best to consult a lama and ask what, if anything, is a suitable practice. It could be Green Tara for all I know.


this is offtopic i guess but part of the conv and can possibly be of benefit to me so i wish we can continue the green tara subject here too in a small way if there is something more to it.

i have received green tara empowerement but for some reason i dont feel very connected to her.

i have a padmasambhava terma sadhana but its not really one of my favourite sadhanas since it is all about offering and offering, it has good aspiration prayers but it is really really really long.

and also i have trouble relating to taras mantra, i dont understand it nor do i feel it.

so the only practice i like are the 21 praises to tara.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby smcj » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:31 pm

Tara is a protectoress. If you feel threatened that might be appropriate.

But that is a wild hypothetical speculation on my part, just to give a different perspective on the situation. Find a tantrically oriented lama and ask him. Also ask for a 'mo'.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby smcj » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:36 pm

i have received green tara empowerement but for some reason i dont feel very connected to her.

One of my favorite books is "Bodhisattva of Compassion" by Blofeld. It's about the Chinese Kwan Yin, which technically is same deity as Chenrezi since they share the same mantra, but given the feminine style of her blessings she reminds me more of Tara. Blofeld lived in pre-communist China and collected all kinds of stories about her from all kinds of people; dreams, auspicious coincidences, encounters (!), and such, and put them all in one book. It is delightful pleasure reading material, unlike 99%+ Dharma books, stories mostly.

Once story that effected me was about an evil stepmother that was responsible for the death of the protagonist's mother. At some point he saw his chance for revenge and was going to kill her. The evil stepmother saw what was going to happen and called out to Kwan Yin, and the protagonist found himself suddenly frozen in place. Kwan Yin took pity on the evil stepmother, even though she was the villain in the story. The idea of that type of carte-blance non-critical compassion has flavored my attitude towards how I take Refuge, although it does not have a specific application.

Like I said, it is pleasure reading material. :reading:
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:24 pm

sounds like a good book, thanks. i think reading it would strenghten my devotion to chenrezig
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby ClearblueSky » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:58 am

If you're looking for a psychological analysis of it (as opposed to more of practice instructions) you can check out the book "The Psychology of Buddhist Tantra" by Rob Preece. A lot of talk about wrathful deities from a psychological point of view in there, and it's a pretty interesting book in general.
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:32 pm

thanks, i have come across that book on amazon but its not close to my next read books. but maybe someday
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

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