the psychology and nature application of wrathful deities

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the psychology and nature application of wrathful deities

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:55 pm

can someone who has experience of the psychology of tantra and especially when connecting with wrathful deities. introduce the psychology aspect of the mind related to wrathful manifestations.

are the wrathful ones more potent to deal with negative energies, to tame them and purify and make them peaceful, liberated.

what is the purpose of the wrathful appearance. how is the enlightened wrath related to the normal mind and samsaric emotions?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby smcj » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:23 pm

Kalu R. said that a secular example of Mahakala (wrathful compassion) would be a mother seeing her child do something dangerous. She would discipline her child, not out of anger, but out of love for the child so it knows better next time.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:12 am

im looking for an answer also that is wrathful manifestations the right method to deal with really persistent fear of certain people and situations. to help and purify inside and outside.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby smcj » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:28 am

Sounds like you might be looking for a weapon. That's probably not a good application for a wrathful deity.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby Lhasa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:26 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:im looking for an answer also that is wrathful manifestations the right method to deal with really persistent fear of certain people and situations. to help and purify inside and outside.


Put "Feeding Your Demons" into google search, this is a variant of Chod practice and does not require transmission. I find it very effective.
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:52 am

smcj wrote:Sounds like you might be looking for a weapon. That's probably not a good application for a wrathful deity.



weapon would not be probly the best term to use for my wish of application of the wrath energy. the point is not to destroy but to transform fear and hatred inthe inside and outside world as enlightened and liberated energy, make it a compassionate force instead of samsaric hate force. and dissolve its negative negative qualities and purify it.

''Vajrakilaya (Skt. Vajrakīlaya; Tib. Dorje Phurba) or Vajrakumara (Skt. Vajrakumāra; Tib. Dorje Shönnu) — the wrathful manifestation of Vajrasattva. Vajrakilaya is the yidam deity who embodies the enlightened activity of all the buddhas and whose practice is famous for being the most powerful for removing inner and outer obstacles, destroying the forces hostile to compassion and purifying the spiritual pollution so prevalent in this age.''

you say weapon like its a bad thing. sometimes you need wrath when peaceful deities dont work.

and this doesnt answer my question anyway

im looking to understand the psychological use and application of the wrathful manifestations in general. how are they used in the tibetan tradition?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:54 am

Lhasa wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:im looking for an answer also that is wrathful manifestations the right method to deal with really persistent fear of certain people and situations. to help and purify inside and outside.


Put "Feeding Your Demons" into google search, this is a variant of Chod practice and does not require transmission. I find it very effective.


are you referring to the book '' feeding your demons '' ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby brendan » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:53 am

smcj wrote:Kalu R. said that a secular example of Mahakala (wrathful compassion) would be a mother seeing her child do something dangerous. She would discipline her child, not out of anger, but out of love for the child so it knows better next time.



http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action? ... f=16493018
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:14 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
Lhasa wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:im looking for an answer also that is wrathful manifestations the right method to deal with really persistent fear of certain people and situations. to help and purify inside and outside.


Put "Feeding Your Demons" into google search, this is a variant of Chod practice and does not require transmission. I find it very effective.


are you referring to the book '' feeding your demons '' ?



i think im gonna buy this book :) ive thought of it before but never happened.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:22 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:you say weapon like its a bad thing. sometimes you need wrath when peaceful deities dont work.


If you use a wrathful mantra out of anger it is nothing other than black magic. The wrathful rituals must never be used by any other motivation than compassion.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:00 pm

i agree that you should do wrathful mantras out of anger or hatred.

but this is not about that, this is about trusting and relying on enlightened forces to help and purify you. not to destroy your enemies or such. maybe to destroy theyre negative emotions and thoughts and that way help them. purify the energies of the interconnectedness of all mandalas.

nobody seems to understand or answer my real question here.
Last edited by KonchokZoepa on Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:04 pm

i cant say that i am the most compassionate person or that i would do any sadhana out of great compassion, and only out of compassion. i am selfish, and i do Dharma practice for my own benefit, but i dont forget others and i pray for them also.

i think its actually a great accomplishment if you can do wrathful sadhana out of compassion for all beings, only out of compassion no traces of selfishness whatsoever.


but i am still asking about the psychology related to wrathful deities, does anyone know anything about that ?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:10 pm

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:you say weapon like its a bad thing. sometimes you need wrath when peaceful deities dont work.


If you use a wrathful mantra out of anger it is nothing other than black magic. The wrathful rituals must never be used by any other motivation than compassion.



are you sure you cannot do wrathful rituals with selfish motive for wanting purification and good qualities and pure energies and purity of mind for oneself, im not talking about harming others or having a negative intention to practice the wrathful sadhanas.

i have to say that one of my motivating factors is fear of being killed, and i want to rely on the help of vajrakilaya to purify my mind, my interconnectedness and that way purify others, all that so all is in better condition, less negative forces so better conditions for practicing Dharma.

basically if you want to purify or destroy hostiles forces, inside and outside with wrathful manifestation because you want to get rid of obstacles to succesful dharma practice and life, isnt it compassion in some sense, it benefits beings. doesnt harm them at all. actually helps them.

also if i want to manifest as vajrakilaya and destroy hostile and self destructive forces. i am doing nothing but benefiting the world.

hmm. this a little bit of mind clearing for my self. please, comment, lets reflect.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
KonchokZoepa
 
Posts: 1358
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby Lhasa » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:12 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
Lhasa wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:im looking for an answer also that is wrathful manifestations the right method to deal with really persistent fear of certain people and situations. to help and purify inside and outside.


Put "Feeding Your Demons" into google search, this is a variant of Chod practice and does not require transmission. I find it very effective.


are you referring to the book '' feeding your demons '' ?


Yes, on the taramandala website you can download it and there is a mp3 of just the practice.
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:14 pm

Maybe you should post your question in the Tantra section. I'm sure there are quite a few people here with the knowledge to answer your question, but because wrathful practices are secret you won't get much more answers in public.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby ReasonAndRhyme » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:23 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:are you sure you cannot do wrathful rituals with selfish motive for wanting purification and good qualities and pure energies and purity of mind for oneself, im not talking about harming others or having a negative intention to practice the wrathful sadhanas.


There are different levels of practice which use different visualisations and mantras. On a beginner's level I think this is a good enough motivation. But that's just my personal take, you should really ask a teacher who is qualified to give Vajrakilaya initiations and instructions.
"Forget about being clever, and simply remain." Guru Rinpoche, Treasures from Juniper Ridge
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby kirtu » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:02 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:im looking for an answer also that is wrathful manifestations the right method to deal with really persistent fear of certain people and situations. to help and purify inside and outside.


In general, Vajrakilaya is for eliminating obstacles to enlightenment for all beings. On a personal level the practice of Vajrakilaya tends to cut a person's anger and help the person transform their own negative emotions.

In general, persistent fears should be dealt with with Green Tara practice.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby smcj » Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:03 pm

In general, persistent fears should be dealt with with Green Tara practice,...

...with which you can learn what it is to trust completely. :twothumbsup:

Sorry, just seemed like that sentence hadn't quite ended. My apologies if my addition is not in accord with the original intent.
A human being has his limits. And thus, in every conceivable way, with every possible means, he tries to make the teaching enter into his own limits. ChNN
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby kirtu » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:49 am

ReasonAndRhyme wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:you say weapon like its a bad thing. sometimes you need wrath when peaceful deities dont work.


If you use a wrathful mantra out of anger it is nothing other than black magic. The wrathful rituals must never be used by any other motivation than compassion.


This sort of fear is, practically speaking, unfounded. Using Vajrayana as black magic is practically speaking almost impossible. Few people can do this and certainly no (or almost no) Westerners (not using deity yoga at least). The requirements are just far beyond the capabilities of most people. And anyway, after one fails at that, your'd fall into hell for sure as a result of those aspirations.

Chagdud Tulku *did* say in his biography that when he was a young man in Tibet he got very angry at another tulku and *did* try to do something like this. He began preparations but was suddenly visited by his lama who praised him saying that some people did in fact misuse Dharma but the lama was confidant that Chagdud Tulku would never do that.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: the psychology and nature application of wrathful deitie

Postby kirtu » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:57 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:i have to say that one of my motivating factors is fear of being killed, and i want to rely on the help of vajrakilaya to purify my mind, my interconnectedness and that way purify others, all that so all is in better condition, less negative forces so better conditions for practicing Dharma.

Vajrakilaya practice will do that as will all deity practice. It just depends on your connection to the deity practice.

also if i want to manifest as vajrakilaya and destroy hostile and self destructive forces. i am doing nothing but benefiting the world.


but aside from destroying negative forces in yourself and possibly benefiting others through interdependence, the level of accomplishment that you are suggesting here is far beyond the reach of most practitioners. Most people will never develop overt, miracle working siddhis. For us, siddhis will be subtle manifestations not overt Virupa or Padmasambhava-like manifestations, to say nothing of something like the magic fights of Ra Lotsawa, etc.

Kirt
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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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