Awareness vs Internal monologue

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby undefineable » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:38 pm

Zhen Li wrote:The voice doesn't even arise if you relax enough. The insight that is gained in meditation does not come in monologue form, it is direct seeing. Whenever you speak mentally, you are filtering through contact, feeling, perception, and volition - it is viewing through four layers of rose-tinted glasses.
In my experience, literal words that come into mind as commentary on discursive thoughts are a way of prolonging and even memorising those thoughts - grasping on to them in other words. On the other hand, I read somewhere that Buddhas do not talk to themselves; I assume this is meant figuratively (in the sense of discursive thought) as well as literally (in the sense of actually thinking, mouthing, or even speaking out loud to oneself using words).
Zhen Li wrote:
mandala wrote:You can even label it "thinking" and then go back to whatever your meditation focus was.. body awareness, breath counting, visualisation, analysis etc.

This works. However, it is the long way. In the end I must disagree that thought must continue the whole time. While you can tranquilise formations through awareness alone, it really works better when it is active tranquilisation. Try it, it is really quite interesting the first time.
I'm not sure your 'quick' way will work for everyone, atleast not throughout every meditation session - 'Active tranquilisation' sounds like suppressing thoughts, and although you may not have meant that, there's plenty of room for misunderstanding as well as (most likely) the mere satisfiying of the natural desire for control.

Edit {Just thought of something}: In case you weren't aware, 'tranquilise' in English literally means to give a human or animal a drug that suppresses mental activities; as a metaphor, it would mean much the same - only without the medication.

'Make tranquil' would have a less extreme meaning.
Last edited by undefineable on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby undefineable » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:43 pm

Iliad wrote:The thing is, I like structuring my thoughts in this way. It seems to greatly enhance my ability to think. And it doesn't influence my emotions. That's why I'm trying to find a way to have both awareness and a monologue at the same time.
{My emphasis} Are you actually referring to what works for you in your line of work? Many occupations seem to draw on more visual or intuitive modes of thought.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby undefineable » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:22 pm

@Zhen Li: I noticed you mentioned 'tension and tightness around your brain' a lot in an earlier post. I did recently have a large tumour of the brain lining (a 'meningioma') removed, but major cases in younger people are very rare. {I'm making this one justifiable exception to what I said in a post yesterday in case anyone's wondering ;) } - Do you think that people (or perhaps the beings of their previous rebirths) have to have indulged in an unnatural degree of craving in order to build up enough of that tension and tightness? {Of course, scientists would never let on or try to prove this if they suspected it, since it would obviously worry people too much.} Anyway, I sense that discovering Buddhism may have at least delayed this a few years for me.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby LastLegend » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:21 pm

avisitor wrote:Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects, or sensory patterns
So what good did this description do you??
You know what awareness is.
If you are asking who you are then that is a question worth asking ... hahahaha


That is fine for now. I will ask you again in the future, and hopefully you will have your own understanding. Playing clever does not cut it. :lol:

It is also helpful that you don't seek a conceptual answer to a direct question, but rather a direct experience through contemplation.

Take care.
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NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby avisitor » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:11 am

LastLegend wrote:
avisitor wrote:Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects, or sensory patterns
So what good did this description do you??
You know what awareness is.
If you are asking who you are then that is a question worth asking ... hahahaha


That is fine for now. I will ask you again in the future, and hopefully you will have your own understanding. Playing clever does not cut it. :lol:

It is also helpful that you don't seek a conceptual answer to a direct question, but rather a direct experience through contemplation.

Take care.

Let's turn the table around.
You tell me what you believe awareness is and how we can use this to see Buddha Nature.
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby LastLegend » Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:25 am

avisitor wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
avisitor wrote:Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects, or sensory patterns
So what good did this description do you??
You know what awareness is.
If you are asking who you are then that is a question worth asking ... hahahaha


That is fine for now. I will ask you again in the future, and hopefully you will have your own understanding. Playing clever does not cut it. :lol:

It is also helpful that you don't seek a conceptual answer to a direct question, but rather a direct experience through contemplation.

Take care.

Let's turn the table around.
You tell me what you believe awareness is and how we can use this to see Buddha Nature.


Awareness is silence, not a thought or conception, is looking through your two eyes and recognizing an apple from an orange.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby avisitor » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:19 pm

LastLegend wrote:Awareness is silence, not a thought or conception, is looking through your two eyes and recognizing an apple from an orange.

Wait, awareness is silence??
When I am asleep, there is silence .. well, if I am not snoring.
Apple from an orange ... isn't that a concept of what apples and oranges are??

I am sorry. But anytime you use words, there will be mis-understanding and conflict.
That is the nature of talking about what is awareness.
So if you understand my mis-givings to talk about what I believe in then you know it is not an easy thing to do.
To communicate the understanding or belief from my experiences.
And remember that experience doesn't mean much without the understanding that is suppose to come with it.
It is a balancing act.

Awareness is perception .. there is you (whatever you are, really you) and you perceive or have awareness.
Awareness can dwell in silence or be in the most noisy environment.
But, in order for a person to become cognizant of their awareness, silence is a better environment.
A person has a flow of thoughts which arises and passes across the mind.
When a person identifies with the thoughts (the internal dialogue), the person becomes this array of thoughts across the mind.

Meditation gives us a task to focus upon.
Watch breath. Let thoughts come and let them go. Watch breath.
Focusing on breath and letting go of thoughts allows the person to disengage from the flow of thoughts.
It sounds simple to let go of thoughts. But it is this process that allows for changes to happen.
The mind quiets naturally. Concentration is better. Clarity.

Sometime after much practice, a person can sense the concentration still with the person for awhile after finishing a formal sitting practice.
Dwelling in this sense of clarity is bringing meditation into daily life.
When sitting at the doctors office or waiting for the bus, the person is no longer wasting time.
The person is living the present moment.

If the person has an unpleasant task to do or is just waiting for something or someone
Then without this clarity of mind, the flow of thoughts will run scattered and impose it thoughts.
Emotions, wants, needs, clinging, grasping .... "suffering".
The clarity allows for space to open up. To see the flow of thoughts and choose to go with or not to go with the flow of thoughts.
Not wrapped up in the internal dialogue, the suffering is lessened.

If the person continues the practice to a very strong degree of concentration.
A very particular sense of silence comes.
... I will stop here.
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby LastLegend » Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:20 pm

I guess you did not find my description helpful. No? Either way, good luck to you.
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby avisitor » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:08 pm

LastLegend wrote:I guess you did not find my description helpful. No? Either way, good luck to you.

Do you see now?
I gave you the basics that is taught about meditation.
And there is nothing new in it.
But, After I go through the practice, I see the wisdom in it.
Astonished that no one else sees the value of it.

Awareness is the practice.

Edit: The awareness that meditation opens up allows one to see the thoughts rise and go.
It is this awareness that gives one a choice to break the internal monologue.
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby LastLegend » Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:25 pm

avisitor wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I guess you did not find my description helpful. No? Either way, good luck to you.

Do you see now?
I gave you the basics that is taught about meditation.
And there is nothing new in it.
But, After I go through the practice, I see the wisdom in it.
Astonished that no one else sees the value of it.

Awareness is the practice.


That is fine. Whatever works for you, do it.

As for myself, I found it helpful after I met a 70 year old Vietnamese farmer. He spoke of no meditation or any such things at all. It was silence.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby avisitor » Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:45 am

LastLegend wrote:That is fine. Whatever works for you, do it.

As for myself, I found it helpful after I met a 70 year old Vietnamese farmer. He spoke of no meditation or any such things at all. It was silence.

Then tell me of this silence you've found!!
What is it?
How does it come about?
How can it be applied??
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby LastLegend » Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:10 am

avisitor wrote:
LastLegend wrote:That is fine. Whatever works for you, do it.

As for myself, I found it helpful after I met a 70 year old Vietnamese farmer. He spoke of no meditation or any such things at all. It was silence.

Then tell me of this silence you've found!!
What is it?
How does it come about?
How can it be applied??


It's always there, silence, and bright. It is silence because it is not chattering of thoughts and cannot be conceptualized. It is easy to miss it.

Find an object and stare at that object for a long time, and you might 'find' it.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

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must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby avisitor » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:52 pm

LastLegend wrote:It's always there, silence, and bright. It is silence because it is not chattering of thoughts and cannot be conceptualized. It is easy to miss it.

Find an object and stare at that object for a long time, and you might 'find' it.


That description and those instructions are woefully lacking.
I really am sorry to have bothered you about it.

Good luck to you.
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby yoga lion » Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:01 am

I don't think its possible to have a sense of awareness during thinking and its also not necessary to practice it.

Thinking is just the function of consciousness(awareness). Think when needed. Let it go when not needed.
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Re: Awareness vs Internal monologue

Postby Martin007 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:35 am

Iliad wrote: My question is: how to combine thought with awareness?


Just be aware that you are thinking. Technically it's maintaining mindfulness of mind objects. I find simple labelling can be helpful, eg "thinking".
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