Mind wandering

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.

Re: Mind wandering

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:46 pm

letting them go can sound allright but not understanding how to do it you might actually repress your thoughts and that is not meditation.

becoming aware of this inner surveillance is a real key to meditation and making the mind more clarified and more open and free.


These sound worlds apart. Hopefully we all know that most people subconsciously repress thoughts that have been judged to be negative or useless, although habitually failing to suppress thoughts will clearly make for a mixed blessing on the Path (and may partly account for the bias towards those with mental problems among the sub-set of people who are attracted to meditation :alien: ). For me atleast, the difference with shamatha/vipassana is that in order to practice you have to accept that if there is no substantial Self to be gained or lost by following thoughts, then there is no need to follow or repress any of them during the session, and no use in following thoughts so far as to really get lost in them at any other time. {In my experience atleast, most of the pain caused by the kind of thoughts people tend to repress comes from ego's sense that unrepressed 'negative' thoughts will warn of or (alternatively) lead to the destruction of Self.

To develop enough 'inner surveillance' to penetrate to the roots of one's mental habits, on the other hand, sounds like the result of long-term meditation to say the very least :bow:[/quote]

im a bit interested in it that how can you generate a stable understanding or realization that is effortless and you dont have to give it a second thought that there is no substantial self. i see that there is not a substantial self but at the same time i believe there is. because it is so deeply ingrained. and i think this is much bigger accomplishment in meditation because it equals to cutting the root of samsara. and i think with awareness of this automatic inner surveillance and acceptance of everything that happens in the mind space. you will at least become conscious of your mental habits in considerably short amount of time. about cutting them completely i have no idea. can you even cut them or do you just replace them.

anyway, simple breath meditation just doesnt do the trick for me. i need this awareness of the inner surveillance and i think it should be included as a part of the meditation teachings for stupid students like me who understand that when they say '' just follow your breath'' you just do that and nothing else. as a result you loose awareness of whats happening and are ignoring your inner space. and also if you want to achieve real benefits from meditation, after and with this awareness of the inner space combined with breathing of course comes the acceptance part where you start to actually make peace and acceptance with the mind space or yourself or whatevers in there. and if this doesnt take place while only focusing on samatha and stilling the mind while breathing. you can achieve levels of concentration but i think at the same time you are forgetting the psychological nature of your mind and it wont make it a more fertile ground for positive qualities to grow in. allthough i can be wrong on this, there might and possible are other ways and simple samatha might work for some beings but for me this approach lets me purify and deal and become more ever of the mind content and stuff much more effectively.

anyway maybe talk more next time, let me know what you think so we and especially i can learn and get new perspectives. thanks
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby avisitor » Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:11 pm

oushi wrote:
avisitor wrote:
oushi wrote:...

I do not wish to side track this topic so I PM you.

Will you try to convince me that you are right and I am wrong? There is no point in doing that. If my words don't help you, please ignore them. I you see something else them sincere openness in my posts, please ignore them. I will not spend time convincing anyone to anything, I just share my views.

No, I am not trying to convince you of anything other than not to side track the topic.
As I said before, I do not dis-agree with you.
But, there is a time and place for everything.
Understanding is a tricky thing .. due to the nature of what we are seeking.
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby undefineable » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:42 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:im a bit interested in it that how can you generate a stable understanding or realization that is effortless
That's what I was wondering too, lol _
KonchokZoepa wrote:and you dont have to give it a second thought that there is no substantial self.
Well I'm an autistic who, unlike other autistics (though other autistic Dharmawheel members may dispute this), gained insight at an intuitive/'gut' level into how others saw people in that same sense. Thereby, I became aware that I didn't even appear to others to have a substantial Self. Anything else kinda flowed from there, though some might say that seeing sentient beings as 'strands of consciousness' (a term I made up) at the age of 8 without having been exposed to any such ideas -Buddhist or otherwise- suggests exposure to the dharma in a previous life. Of course, the same people would generally suggest the same about anyone else who came to the dharma from other backgrounds (my parents's beliefs are ex-Christian theosophist/'hippy' -meaning that they claim to feel particular sympathy for Buddhism- in any case), and would be quick to point out that what we really are is far more subtle, as well as all-embracing, than 'strands' (or even 'streams') of consciousness.

On the other hand, neither I nor most other members here are even a little 'realised', so I don't know who, here, could advise you how -as an individual- you should meditate, atleast without meeting you in person. Further, since your post seems to be partly directed at me, i should tell you that my next rebirth will be in the darkest Hell there could ever be. I know I've just broken forum rules as well as the Third Imponderable by writing this, and that I'll be told to 'seek professional help' (which I already have :P ), but I'm pretty sure I've not mentioned any of this before on Dharmawheel, so I'll just "get this off my chest" and explain how I know where I am ( :offtopic: ) and then get :focus: . {Actually, none of it's "off-topic" if you view it as an example of why we should bring our minds under control!}

So, the insight into others' perceptions that I mentioned led to my desperately trying -before and after I learned about and was diagnosed with autism- to overcome my 'problems' and rediscover some kind of Self, but with no conceivable method or equanimity, this led in turn to a development of crippling Avoidant Personality Disorder. This then caused a dependence on antidepressants (since they soon stopped me feeling the need to take any initiative -beyond remaining under-employed- that might have involved other people) and a frontal lobe brain tumour that I had removed two years ago today. {The tumour would have killed me by now -or at best turned me into a vegetable- if I hadn't taken part in autism research involving brain-scans; as if to show exactly how karma works, it was already effectively making me more autistic.} Finally, I developed epilepsy as a delayed reaction to the operation, and am only just getting used to a suitable medication after spending a year (having been unable for Health Service and mental health reasons to 'transition' sooner) with the mind of an early-stage Alzheimer's patient due to a fast-acting 'traditional' anti-epileptic drug that I chose in order to get back to work as soon as possible. Anyhow, whoever feels it worthwhile is welcome to PM me with Moderator's Warnings or any other advice (e.g. that basic dharma practice will do nothing but lengthen my sentence in hell), though I won't be going into any of this again on DW or anywhere else. {In any case, the particular tumour I had could have grown so slowly and/or sporadically that it could have triggered my adolescent breakdown or even been misdiagnosed as autism, so perhaps -since I discovered evidence that all of this was the case- it's all down to some dodgy pranayama practice or some such in a previous life :rolleye: }

As for the illusion of Self, all Dharmawheel members likely have this as an automatic reflex ;) In the light of the off-topic last paragraph, your suggestion:
KonchokZoepa wrote:with this awareness of the inner space combined with breathing of course comes the acceptance part where you start to actually make peace and acceptance with the mind space or yourself or whatevers in there.
rings very true. The point seems to be that if we're all just 'sentient beings' (rather than 'eternal souls', 'machines', or whatever), then there's no point in making a big issue of any patterns or contents that may or may not characterise the working of our minds at any particular point, since in this case the other side of the coin that makes us what we are (enlightenment) involves viewing those same patterns and contents as just another set of characteristics; as a moment of flux within an inifinity of potentiality.
"Removing the barrier between this and that is the only solution" {Chogyam Trungpa - "The Lion's Roar"}
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby avisitor » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:05 am

LastLegend wrote:
avisitor wrote:
When you see you are not on breath, then bring yourself back to breath.
Breath is the lifeline or "anchor" to your awareness.
It is as simple as letting thoughts arise and letting them go.
The hard part is to actually practice it correctly.


I hope no offense taken on both of us.

I would like to ask you if awareness is always with you, why do you have to sit to be aware? Why can't we be aware when we eat, walk, talk, chant Amitabha, or even taking a shit?


As in the title of the topic ... Mind wandering.
Awareness is with a person but the mind is scattered, wandering
When on sits, one is not just sitting. Thoughts about the future or past run through.
Meditation practice is the practice of awareness.
Given a task to watch breath, letting thoughts arise and letting thoughts go, the mind calms down.
Focus, concentration, clarity, equanimity, ... mindfulness, awareness comes from practice.
These are cultivated into daily life.
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby LastLegend » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:25 am

avisitor wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
avisitor wrote:
When you see you are not on breath, then bring yourself back to breath.
Breath is the lifeline or "anchor" to your awareness.
It is as simple as letting thoughts arise and letting them go.
The hard part is to actually practice it correctly.


I hope no offense taken on both of us.

I would like to ask you if awareness is always with you, why do you have to sit to be aware? Why can't we be aware when we eat, walk, talk, chant Amitabha, or even taking a shit?


As in the title of the topic ... Mind wandering.
Awareness is with a person but the mind is scattered, wandering
When on sits, one is not just sitting. Thoughts about the future or past run through.
Meditation practice is the practice of awareness.
Given a task to watch breath, letting thoughts arise and letting thoughts go, the mind calms down.
Focus, concentration, clarity, equanimity, ... mindfulness, awareness comes from practice.
These are cultivated into daily life.


That is fine. What I am asking you is why do you have to limit it to just sitting? Sitting is just an activity. Eating is an activity. Walking is an activity.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby oushi » Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:18 am

avisitor wrote:But, there is a time and place for everything.
Understanding is a tricky thing .. due to the nature of what we are seeking.

There is no special timing, or location, sorry to disagree. Mostly because understanding it a tricky thing.
And...what are you seeking?
Say what you think about me here.
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:43 am

to undefineable

you wont go to hell, we'll see you in pure land of sukhavati.

Namo Amitabha, Om Amidewa Hrih
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby avisitor » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:17 pm

undefineable wrote:
avisitor wrote:The mind will wander. It is presently all about practice .. returning to breath.

Whether either the breath or wandering thoughts are a sufficient anchor for the mind is under question. Maybe that's why ungrasped mental phenomena -along with the space in which they occur- takes so long (i.e. the time one's mindstream takes to reach full enlightement) and/or so much mental transformation to begin functioning as that 'anchor', even when one constantly wills it / does what it takes to make it so. So where you say:

The mind will wander. It is presently all about practice .. returning to breath.
It will become a sufficient anchor with practice.


LastLegend wrote:
avisitor wrote:Meditation practice is the practice of awareness.
Given a task to watch breath, letting thoughts arise and letting thoughts go, the mind calms down.
Focus, concentration, clarity, equanimity, ... mindfulness, awareness comes from practice.
These are cultivated into daily life.

That is fine. What I am asking you is why do you have to limit it to just sitting? Sitting is just an activity. Eating is an activity. Walking is an activity.

Awareness ... is cultivated into daily life.
It means not limiting it to just sitting.


oushi wrote:
avisitor wrote:But, there is a time and place for everything.
Understanding is a tricky thing .. due to the nature of what we are seeking.

There is no special timing, or location, sorry to disagree. Mostly because understanding it a tricky thing.
And...what are you seeking?


I did not say it requires special timing or location.
I said that there is a time and place for everything.

Seeking??
Understanding from my fellow Dharma Wheel members ... hahaha
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby oushi » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:56 pm

avisitor wrote:Seeking??
Understanding from my fellow Dharma Wheel members ... hahaha

To gain understanding of others, you need to have your own understanding. As far as I see, you are getting as much understanding as you have. All look ok :smile: , don't get confused.
Say what you think about me here.
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby avisitor » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:18 pm

oushi wrote:
avisitor wrote:Seeking??
Understanding from my fellow Dharma Wheel members ... hahaha

To gain understanding of others, you need to have your own understanding. As far as I see, you are getting as much understanding as you have. All look ok :smile: , don't get confused.

Again misunderstanding ....
I seek understanding from my fellow Dharma Wheel members
And not to gain understanding of others.

Is English a second language for you??
:rolling:

Edit: Your mind is making a leap in judgement and re-interpreting my words.
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Re: Mind wandering

Postby oushi » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:34 pm

Is English a second language for you??
:rolling:

Yes it is, sorry. Luckily you know what I meant.
avisitor wrote:Edit: Your mind is making a leap in judgement and re-interpreting my words.

Your mind is also making a leap in judgement and re-interpreting my words.
Shall we return to the subject, or continue in this manner?
Say what you think about me here.
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