when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:40 pm

thanks this might help.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby philji » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:21 pm

Everyone is so greedy for Dzogchen.....work on the basics, work with your mind, rest in natural awareness and develop loving kindness and compassion..... If no teacher available check out www.tergar.com for info on joy of living 1 online course soon to start.. Mingyur Rinpoche introduces us to the natural state very effortlessly....
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:34 pm

philji wrote:Everyone is so greedy for Dzogchen.....work on the basics, work with your mind, rest in natural awareness and develop loving kindness and compassion..... If no teacher available check out http://www.tergar.com for info on joy of living 1 online course soon to start.. Mingyur Rinpoche introduces us to the natural state very effortlessly....


be it greedy in your eyes, i think people just want to find the fastest way to enlightenment. i dont think dzogchen outrules mahayana teachings of loving kindness and compassion. just the opposite. as there is no wisdom without compassion.

i have to say that i wonder if i am going to dzogchen too hastily , but getting introduced to it can be of no harm. efforts towards enlightenment, if greedy, then harmleslly greedy, if you are greedy of your true being, still, we have the right to be in the state of truth. i dont think its negative.

and i see myself not greedy but curious of dzogchen.

thanks anyway.

ive read mingyur rinpoches joy of living or freedom was it, i think it was a good book, but not very helpful for me.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:25 pm

philji wrote:Everyone is so greedy for Dzogchen


Is there a problem with wanting to receive Dzogchen teachings right away? Is there a problem with wanting to be introduced to one's primordial state directly? I should think not.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:27 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote: i dont think dzogchen outrules mahayana teachings of loving kindness and compassion.


Dzogchen reveals the fact that compassion is a natural expression of the primordial state. Discover that, and you will discover true compassion. Otherwise, compassion is very partial and selective -- I see this among so called "Mahāyāna" practitioners all the time.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:34 pm

so am i correct that you register in your local dzogchen community that is lead by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and then you have the acces the the archive of webcasts?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:44 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:so am i correct that you register in your local dzogchen community that is lead by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and then you have the acces the the archive of webcasts?



The way it works is like this. You can listen to any open webcast (most webcasts are open) without being a member at all.

If you want to listen to replays, then there is an archive of those online, but you must be a member of the Dzogchen Community to access them and must have a password., etc.

You cannot receive any sort of transmission from a replay, they are intended to help people remember what rinpoche taught.

IN order to receive any transmission, you must be listening live. In your case, your gar is Merigar West. So you purchase your membership through their website.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby philji » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:54 pm

I am sorry if I have offended anyone through my mention of greediness for Dzogchen...I uses I am old Skool and feel the need for purification and accumulation to clear the shit away from my eyes... Having received the introduction to the nature of my mind this accumulation and purification is so much more wonderful.... :namaste:
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:05 pm

philji wrote:I am sorry if I have offended anyone through my mention of greediness for Dzogchen...I uses I am old Skool and feel the need for purification and accumulation to clear the shit away from my eyes... Having received the introduction to the nature of my mind this accumulation and purification is so much more wonderful.... :namaste:



If you feel you need purification, etc., great. But you should not extrapolate from your condition to the condition of others.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby KonchokZoepa » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:55 pm

malcolm and everyone, Thanks for the help! :namaste: i appreciate it a lot :smile:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:20 am

philji wrote:I am sorry if I have offended anyone through my mention of greediness for Dzogchen...I uses I am old Skool and feel the need for purification and accumulation to clear the shit away from my eyes... Having received the introduction to the nature of my mind this accumulation and purification is so much more wonderful.... :namaste:


I personally practice a ngondro simultaneously with Dzogchen, so that should put the following in proper context: Garab Dorje is pretty old school, and seems he got right to teaching Dzogchen without demanding his students do a ngondro first. In fact, I believe Garab Dorje's approach to teaching Dzogchen predates the advent of systematic ngondro's.

Secondly, and I'm not replying to your comment about 'greediness for Dzogchen' because I was offended, but sure, some people may grasp onto the idea of Dzogchen as "advanced practice" that is super sexy. But those really in the know understand it is your real nature and find it infinitely sensible to get straight to getting familiar with their real nature. To paraphrase something someone mentioned on another thread, so many Westerners have this defeatist attitude that supposes that determining what one's instant presence is exactly is some kind of far-off they wouldn't think of being so conceited as to think they could achieve... like it's only for exotic Tibetans in isolated mountain caves and retreat huts and people who have first recited a million Vajra Guru mantras.

Now, I do believe that doing lots of generation stage practice and the like can certainly grease the wheels, so to speak, and can only help when one enters in Dzogchen practice, provided one is not too rigidly conditioned by concepts related to that yana or others... But that kind of practice is not strictly necessary across the board. When you get introduced to Rushen and sem dzin practice I think you will see very clearly that those two are a perfect pace to start upon receiving direct introduction.
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby philji » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:15 am

Pema. Hi..sorry once again for any offence..these online forum things do have their draw backs... I agree with what you say about people viewing Dzogchen as super sexy etc..... I am just a beginner myself but after receiving instructions from different teachers I can now begin to see that the instructions for recognising nature of mind are contained in many , many teachings..maybe Ll of them?.. Once you know where to look you see it everywhere..it's quite amazing.... I think some folks including myself view some teachings as inferior .... That's a shame..... Even taking refuge is an introduction to our mind essence is it not?
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:49 am

Again, no offense taken. As for seeing certain teachings as inferior, I guess it depends on how you mean that. For some people that may mean looking down upon teachings below the level of Dzogchen as if they're a waste of time or not good enough for them. For me it's more like every teachings is aimed in the direction of realization of the natural state but some are a more direct shot than others. That being so, I see no shame or spiritual materialism in wanting to go straight to the teachings and methods that most directly reveal that knowledge.

Now, if other people's experiences are anything like mine, they'll find that however they imagined Dzogchen to be, this path is anything but easy--at least during the phase of trying to gain certainty about the distinction between mind and instant presence/rigpa, and then in the phase of trying to maintain that instant presence throughout all one's conduct. Dzogchen could easily turn into "Dzogchung" ("Little Perfection"), if you will, if people think they can laze about and keep allowing themselves to indulge in passions and so on like a normal person rather than openly experiencing all that instant presence. If that is one's approach, then anything from Anuyoga on down to simply maintaining consistent ethical conduct is superior.

*Oh and yeah, every part of ngondro in our tradition is essentially guru yoga once one has received empowerment,transmission, and instructions and one understands the instructions. I'm not sure how many people get that at the beginning, or even after some time, but yeah that's the case. But if one does get this, and one has been directly introduced, then it's also a fine context for Dzogchen. That said, the virtues of the Dzogchen-specific preliminaries--the outer, inner, and secret rushens and the semdzins--plus the secondary Dzogchen practices like the 25 Spaces of Samantabhadra and such cannot be understated. But it's all about working with one's own relative condition and circumstances. That's what determines what is superior for oneself as an individual. It's all about what gets the job done for oneself.
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:52 pm

can you tell me about these rushens and semdzins that do you receive the teachings on those during direct introduction or where do you learn them?
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby oberon_rex » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:43 pm

KonchokZoepa - It's not such a good idea to discuss specific practices.

There is a book called "Teachings on Lojongs, Rushens and Semdzins" which you might find a good start. You will be able to purchase either through Merigar or Shang Shung Italy (I think - I'm Australian so I may be completely wrong!).
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:37 pm

philji wrote:Pema. Hi..sorry once again for any offence..these online forum things do have their draw backs... I agree with what you say about people viewing Dzogchen as super sexy etc..... I am just a beginner myself but after receiving instructions from different teachers I can now begin to see that the instructions for recognising nature of mind are contained in many , many teachings..maybe Ll of them?.. Once you know where to look you see it everywhere..it's quite amazing.... I think some folks including myself view some teachings as inferior .... That's a shame..... Even taking refuge is an introduction to our mind essence is it not?



Hi Phil:

Dzogchen is not, as is commonly assumed, merely a teaching about the nature of the mind. It is, by itself, a separate vehicle and path to liberation, complete and independent from beginning to end.

Can it be approached gradually, via lower vehicles. Sort of. But it is possible, and in my opinion best, to practice Dzogchen by itself as a complete path. It is not a path for superior people, it is a superior path for inferior people.

Does Dzogchen have some common features with lower yanas such as refuge, and so on. Of course. But it is different in how it approaches such things.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby oldbob » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:09 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:Hi, I want to know from experience of people that when is a good time to introduce oneself to some dzogchen books and start applying the wisdom in to the view and experience.

i know it is a small question and you can give me a short answer but i would like this to be a conversation that would get especially the dzogchen people talking from experience and wisdom concerning the practice of dzogchen and when to is a good time to start practicing it.

i know its the highest teaching and personally i feel that i have a way to go before dzogchen but this too is a guess, i dont have but uncertainty as my guide.

also ive heard people say the dzogchen is a complete path in and of itself.

so if we could start a conversation from this it would be great.


thanks


Hello Konchok Zoepa,

Dzogchen is alive and well in Finland.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Dzogchen ... 1715942134

http://www.dzogchen.fi/

Lena Kunelius
gsm: +358 50 55 11 220
email: lena.kunelius at elisanet.fi
or info at dzogchen.fi
www.dzogchen.fi

Also: A fine gentleman, physician, old time blues guitar player and one of the best Dzogchen oldtimers anywhere (in Hatlula):

ilkka.tanner@aina.net


The key point is to show up for a webcast and take the transmission from ChNNR. If you like the experience do it again.

http://www.shangshunginstitute.net/webcast/video.php

Schedule of next Webcast:
Zhitro Retreat at Merigar West
September 28-30, 2013
Retreat on the Namchos Zhitro teaching and practice.
Open webcast. Timezione: GMT+2


September 28th

4.00-6.00 p.m. Introduction to the teaching and practice of the Namchos Zhitro; transmission of the Ati Guruyoga.

7.00-9.00 p.m. We will sing and dance some Tibetan songs and dances.


September 29th

10.00-12.00 a.m. Teaching on the Namchos Zhitro and Jyangchog practice for all the dead people.

4.00-5.00 p.m. We will do altogether the Jyangchog practice for all the dead people, particularly those with whom we have a concrete relationship.

5.30-6.00 p.m. Short Ganapuja for the Dakini day. The Lottery draw will follow.

6.30-9.00 p.m. We will sing and dance some Tibetan songs and dances.


September 30th

10.00-12.00 a.m. Advice for the practice in daily life. Tridlungs of the secondary practices. The retreat will end with the Ati Guruyoga and dedications.

Then read some books and show up for some practice courses.

As to when to start - some say Dzogchen is beyond time, so maybe it doesn't matter so much.

As to where to start, you start at the beginning (where you are now) and end at the end (full enlightenment.)

Not to worry - come on in - the water is fine!

ob
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby KonchokZoepa » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:00 pm

i couldnt make it to this retreat since i am having a mahamudra teachings weekend here in finland.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby Motova » Wed May 07, 2014 5:10 pm

Questions about starting:

What level of meditation stability should one have?
What sort of qualities should one have?
How does one go about asking for a direct introduction from a lama?
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Re: when to start studying and practicing Dzogchen

Postby alpha » Wed May 07, 2014 6:07 pm

Motova wrote:Questions about starting:

What level of meditation stability should one have?
What sort of qualities should one have?
How does one go about asking for a direct introduction from a lama?


Qualities of the highest caliber, but the way they were introduced they sounded as being ordinary qualities.
Initially when i started with dzogchen i thought i have all those qualities.
Today I am not so sure anymore.

As for direct introduction, CNNr, gives it with every webcast.
AOM
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