meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

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meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:04 pm

Hi, i have a question.

Do you need to be a skilled and experienced meditator, or to put it another way do you need to have a stable and solid foundation and meditational experience to be able to gain liberating or liberative steps when doing vajrayana deity yoga and sadhana. in example vajrakilaya or vajrayogini.

i know that chenrezig works perfectly even though you are not advanced meditator but these more esoteric and ''potent'' sadhanas of different deities.

i just read in a book alled Diamond Mind - a psychology to meditation. a great book even though i just started. clarifies perfectly all the aspects of meditation.

anyway, that first you need to come in terms with the inner surveillance that happens automatically, judgements, opinions etc that create feelings ( for a short or a longer period ) of time since we go into reaction mode. and we should be able to come in terms with our mind and be OK with all that happens in the mind and not judge or criticize or condemn or whatever it. that with mindfulness practice we should relax with no goal in mind to achieve something from meditation and just relax and come to terms with the content of our being and our mind.

anyway, i havent even achieved that so im a very beginner meditator.

i still want to practice vajrayana along my meditation practice and i dont have a question about Chenrezig because it is perfect.

i also experience negative forces at play in my life and i have the opportunity to do a Vajrakilaya Drubchen and receive Vajrakilaya empowerement from HE Garchen Rinpoche.

is it worth going and after that adopting Vajrakilaya as a regular practice to put an enlightened force to deal with negativities. or is this a way or repressing parts of my self and not coming to terms with what is.

or can you with mindfulness both come to terms with what is and still do vajrakilaya to make it easier and gain some confidence and sense of security.

also if anyone here does the Drikung Kagyu's Vajrakilaya practice or is familiar with Vajrakilaya practice could someone tell me what the sadhanas are like.

thank you. hope it wasnt a too long message / question / contemplation.

i would appreciate conversation from this post.

Thanks

:)
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby qwerty13 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:05 am

KonchokZoepa wrote:Hi, i have a question.

Do you need to be a skilled and experienced meditator, or to put it another way do you need to have a stable and solid foundation and meditational experience to be able to gain liberating or liberative steps when doing vajrayana deity yoga and sadhana. in example vajrakilaya or vajrayogini.



hell yeah you have to be experienced.I dont practice vajrakilaya let alone vajrayogini but those are very high level stuff. Wrathfull deities in general are not for beginners. Plus you need some high level initiations for those.

You could try Tara. She has many aspects and is peaceful / semiwrathful depending on which aspect you are primaly focusing on. She is very "direct" in here actions and you can approach here easily.Reciting praises for Tara is one way to establish connection in her. Make a small altar for her. Practise taking refuge with visualisations. Refuge is foundation of practice.
some info
(http://www.thranguhk.org/buddhism/en_ng ... width=1050)
You will find very easily info from tara practice and there are lot of books available online.

Then focus on doing samatha for couple of weeks to calm you rmind down. This creates good foundation for vipassana/mindfullness. When you feel that your focus and concentration is improved start doing
vipassana/mindfullness. Dont forget compassionate attitude.

So there are some ideas from me. I am not expert in any way, but i belive those will help you get started. Plus finding a teacher helps.

EDIT: Sorry didnt ready your post thoroughly. If you have teacher, good. If you have oportunity to recieve vajrakilaya empoverment then you could take it. But my understanding is that you still need to focus on establishing firm base before doing vajrakilaya.
People love emotional confusion. Just look at the film posters in front of the cinema: nothing but emotional confusion on their faces. Buddha-dharma means not putting yourself at the mercy of emotional confusion. In the world, on the other hand, a big fuss is made over nothing.

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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby ratna » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:52 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:i also experience negative forces at play in my life and i have the opportunity to do a Vajrakilaya Drubchen and receive Vajrakilaya empowerement from HE Garchen Rinpoche.

is it worth going and after that adopting Vajrakilaya as a regular practice to put an enlightened force to deal with negativities. or is this a way or repressing parts of my self and not coming to terms with what is.


I say it's definitely worth receiving the empowerment from HE Garchen Rinpoche. If you don't feel ready doing the practice now, you can take it up later. At least you will then have the transmission, and have made contact with Garchen Rinpoche.

R
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby conebeckham » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:37 pm

Vajrakilaya is actually the first practice done in a Kagyu three year retreat...even before the Four Thoughts and Ngondro....and of course it's probably the most popular Yidam for the Nyingmapas. If you feel drawn to it, I say go for it!

You don't "need to be experienced," what you need is the empowerment, the instructions, and the transmission. But most importantly you need to understand the Vajrakilaya is the Vajra Compassionate Activity of all the Buddhas.
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby Simon E. » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:28 pm

conebeckham wrote:Vajrakilaya is actually the first practice done in a Kagyu three year retreat...even before the Four Thoughts and Ngondro....and of course it's probably the most popular Yidam for the Nyingmapas. If you feel drawn to it, I say go for it!

You don't "need to be experienced," what you need is the empowerment, the instructions, and the transmission. But most importantly you need to understand the Vajrakilaya is the Vajra Compassionate Activity of all the Buddhas.



This. :namaste:
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:19 pm

thankyou beckham for your message :good:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby Konchog1 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:47 pm

Do you need to be a skilled and experienced meditator, or to put it another way do you need to have a stable and solid foundation and meditational experience to be able to gain liberating or liberative steps when doing vajrayana deity yoga and sadhana. in example vajrakilaya or vajrayogini.
Yes. Some kind of 'Lam Rim'. It's the Jewel Ornament of Liberation for the Kagyu.

Specifically, one needs an attitude of renunciation, experience with Bodhicitta, and a good understanding of Emptiness. Especially an understanding of Emptiness. Otherwise the practices don't work or even make sense.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:08 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
Do you need to be a skilled and experienced meditator, or to put it another way do you need to have a stable and solid foundation and meditational experience to be able to gain liberating or liberative steps when doing vajrayana deity yoga and sadhana. in example vajrakilaya or vajrayogini.
Yes. Some kind of 'Lam Rim'. It's the Jewel Ornament of Liberation for the Kagyu.

Specifically, one needs an attitude of renunciation, experience with Bodhicitta, and a good understanding of Emptiness. Especially an understanding of Emptiness. Otherwise the practices don't work or even make sense.



Hi, i have studied the jewel ornament of liberation and the entire lam rim and the entire buddhist path, so i am very familiar with the ideas , concepts and teachings of mahayana buddhism.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby kirtu » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:01 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:Hi, i have a question.

Do you need to be a skilled and experienced meditator, or to put it another way do you need to have a stable and solid foundation and meditational experience to be able to gain liberating or liberative steps when doing vajrayana deity yoga and sadhana. in example vajrakilaya or vajrayogini.


No. These types of deity yoga will tend to help you develop a stable and solid foundation. However you do not need to already be a skilled and experienced meditator. However a solid foundation from the start is best (solid shamata and some vipashyana - however the bare minimum is a reasonable intellectual understanding of emptiness).

Kirt
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:52 pm

yes i have some experience of emptiness. im not the most skilled meditator but im starting to understand the psychology of it little by little. my samatha isnt good but i think insight is allright. thanks for the answer :smile:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby denny » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:31 pm

I wonder if this is an auspicious time for a seeker to ask a question concerning wrathful deities?

I believe I understand part of the power of Vajrakilaya. In fact I had a dream (before learning of Buddhism) in which the crystal puhrba of my mind (at the time I'd have called it "The focus of my mind") pierced through the worst problem/question of my childhood, through my life and through my life-before-I-was-born; (that sounds clumsy) and ended that problem/question forever, by providing understanding and promoting compassion. And which was, I believe, in keeping with typical traditional use of imagery. This was the beginning of my "seeking" for understanding and succor.

But I wonder if there is also some "teaching" which can effectively "skewer" very old, all-encompassing, "unconscious-until-arising" anger built up, as a defense mechanism in a childhood of Asperger rejection? This would change my life in a very positive way but I realize this may be an unreasonable hope.

I hope this is not too off-topic, :offtopic:

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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby Jikan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:35 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:
i have the opportunity to do a Vajrakilaya Drubchen and receive Vajrakilaya empowerement from HE Garchen Rinpoche.


Garchen Rinpoche is a living bodhisattva. Do not waste the opportunity. Show up and do your best. You would not have this opportunity if you lacked the capacity to participate.
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Tue Oct 08, 2013 6:53 pm

i decided not to go already, and i am already too late to change this decision.

i know Garchen Rinpoche is a very high level being, i think he is an incarnation of Aryadeva but i hope and believe i will have another chance of meeting him.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby untxi » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:12 pm

I can't express strongly enough how tragic it is that somebody with the aspiration, faith and karmic connection to received teachings from a master of the caliber of His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche-- was actually discouraged from doing so on a Buddhist discussion board. The only thing that really needs to be "understood" is the immeasurable compassion and realization of Garchen Rinpoche. Just meeting the man provides incomprehensible blessings, and any teaching that he gives is appropriate for anyone regardless of their level of Buddhist training or realization. If there are any doubts to this then one has not met the man. He teaches from direct experience and from the essence of the practice. As such there is little to get jammed up over as the essence of all deities is love-- regardless of their spookiness.

We really need to watch out about prescribing the dharma for others.

-Untxi

qwerty13 wrote:
KonchokZoepa wrote:Hi, i have a question.

Do you need to be a skilled and experienced meditator, or to put it another way do you need to have a stable and solid foundation and meditational experience to be able to gain liberating or liberative steps when doing vajrayana deity yoga and sadhana. in example vajrakilaya or vajrayogini.



hell yeah you have to be experienced.I dont practice vajrakilaya let alone vajrayogini but those are very high level stuff. Wrathfull deities in general are not for beginners. Plus you need some high level initiations for those.

You could try Tara. She has many aspects and is peaceful / semiwrathful depending on which aspect you are primaly focusing on. She is very "direct" in here actions and you can approach here easily.Reciting praises for Tara is one way to establish connection in her. Make a small altar for her. Practise taking refuge with visualisations. Refuge is foundation of practice.
some info
(http://www.thranguhk.org/buddhism/en_ng ... width=1050)
You will find very easily info from tara practice and there are lot of books available online.

Then focus on doing samatha for couple of weeks to calm you rmind down. This creates good foundation for vipassana/mindfullness. When you feel that your focus and concentration is improved start doing
vipassana/mindfullness. Dont forget compassionate attitude.

So there are some ideas from me. I am not expert in any way, but i belive those will help you get started. Plus finding a teacher helps.

EDIT: Sorry didnt ready your post thoroughly. If you have teacher, good. If you have oportunity to recieve vajrakilaya empoverment then you could take it. But my understanding is that you still need to focus on establishing firm base before doing vajrakilaya.
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 09, 2013 3:20 pm

i did not base my decision on any of the posts here. i just felt that my practice at the moment would be more centered and in the essence if i did not make a travel this autumn. i will still participate through the webcast.

and i know even though Garchen Rinpoche is already old he will continue to work and help us for some years to come and he travels to europe every year so propably next year i will go and meet him.

the main reason was that it came so suddenly and i experienced confusion about wether or not to go and then i did not have the pure motivation, it was confused motivation of only wanting to help myself and not so much others, so i talked with this with my sangha friend and i came to conclusion that i will skip this event, of course it would have been very amazing and very very blessed to go, but maybe next time. and now instead of going there i had the money to join the DC and start working with ChNNR and also money to purchase items from the ShangShung store and start my dzogchen practice and also i bought many other books, so i am quite ok and happy with my decision, also now i have the money to buy sadhanas from Garchen's store and one is Garchen's Guru yoga so i dont think that i made a bad decision, after all i can participate through the webcast the event. i think i posted the information about this event webcast on the forum but if someone interested missed that post www.drikung.ru you can find a link to ustream site from the frontpage or just watch the transmissions webcasts from the frontpage.
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:05 pm

Man, i'd just jump in with two feet if you ever get the opportunity for something like that again. Garchen Rinpoche came here a while back and i'm sad to have missed it.

Far as Bodhicitta motivation, what I was told is that essentially you have to fake it until it is real..this is the point I am at, and it is slowly working, it's now becoming natural habit for me to have altruistic thought about people i'm angry with etc..but it starts by just willingly changing your thinking, so I dunno about not going to something like that because you check in and don't like your own motivation at one time or another, just change it the best you can.

Not trying to pry, it just seems like not a great reason to avoid in person contact with such an amazing dude.
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:24 pm

hopefully next year if it is possible, meaning im still here on this planet
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Oct 09, 2013 4:54 pm

KonchokZoepa wrote:hopefully next year if it is possible, meaning im still here on this planet



Well that's ominous, I hope so!
"Just as a lotus does not grow out of a well-levelled soil but from the mire, in the same way the awakening mind
is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby KonchokZoepa » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:51 pm

well you never know, i dont want to see it ominous but lets hope the best :smile:
If the thought of demons
Never rises in your mind,
You need not fear the demon hosts around you.
It is most important to tame your mind within....

In so far as the Ultimate, or the true nature of being is concerned,
there are neither buddhas or demons.
He who frees himself from fear and hope, evil and virtue,
will realize the insubstantial and groundless nature of confusion.
Samsara will then appear as the mahamudra itself….

-Milarepa

OMMANIPADMEHUNG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ls6P9tOYmdo
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Re: meditation and vajrayana and also vajrakilaya

Postby Karma Jinpa » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:27 am

In March 2012 Gar Drolma Center asked Garchen Rinpoche to describe the deity Vajrakilaya for those new to the Dharma. He gave a magnificent description of the arising of wrathful deities:

Garchen Rinpoche wrote:The transformation that occurs when the afflictive emotions are subdued with sharp discriminating awareness is the arising of the wrathful deities. The actual nature of the afflictive emotions is primordial wisdom, thus the five poisons are the five wisdoms. Through the power of awareness the afflictive emotions collapse and this collapsing is revealing of their true nature, primordial wisdom. This collapsing or transformation is the wrathful deity. The wrathful deities are infuriated with compassion; they are not angry. They are like a mother taming a mischievous child. The mother loves the child and becomes infuriated in order to help her child. The wrathful deities arise with intense compassion, taming the very coarse afflictive emotions of sentient beings. Their compassion is even more intense than the compassion of peaceful deities.


Image

From everything I've seen, the practice of Vajrakilaya in Drikung Kagyu is from Ratna Lingpa's terma. Here's a pic of the sadhana cover and a link to get it:

Image
http://www.garchen.net/GBI-Shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_26&products_id=656

This is the text used at the annual Vajrakilaya Drubchen at Garchen Buddhist Institute. As a side note, Rinpoche will be returning to home base in Arizona for exactly this, which will occur November 16 - 24. Incidentally, it starts on my mum's b-day :)
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, it happens that a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་རཱ་ག་ཨ་སྱ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།


:namaste:
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