Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

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Palzang Jangchub
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Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:11 am

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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby heart » Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:35 am

There are many different ngondros in the Karma Kagyu, but the one by the 9th Karmapa seems by far the most common.
Here you got an other for example; http://store.tergar.org/Nectar-of-the-S ... /pmnsy.htm

/magnus
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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Stewart » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:01 am

The text from Samye Ling is the 9th Karmapa's text....same as KTD.

Karma Pakshi is a separate Guru Yoga, usually done after Ngondro.

The short Jamgon Kongtrul Ngondro Magnus linked to, was the text usually taught by Mingyur Rinpoche as part of a 3 year Mahamudra course he used to teach....it's very nice and concise.

Edit: just checked the Samye Ling website... No idea why it says Guru Yoga: Karma Pakshi....they may have included it as Mingyur Rinpoche taught it there a few times....but I doubt it....I'll ask Ani Paldron in the shop. The standard Guru Yoga is in that to text....plus you need a separate Wang, Lung and Tri for Karma Pakshi....it's quite an elaborate Sadhana.
s.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:20 am

I do a daily practice of refuge with prostrations from a Ngondro text I received at the Kagyu monlam a few years back.

The lama who gave me the transmission and a kind friend provided me with the text, but it lists no author (I fear it is maybe missing a page).

On the cover in English it says Ngondro Practice Text, but it would be more accurately "The Liturgy of the Convenient Arrangement of the Preliminary Practices".
(སྔོན་འགྲོའི་ འདོན་ཆ་ རྣམས་ ཁྱེར་བདེར་ བཀོད་པ་) sngon 'gro'i 'don cha rnams khyer bder bkod pa.

I find that the text is very easy to use, as well as chant along with the prostrations. An audio recording would be great, though, because I would like to learn the tunes if there are any. Where I am in Holland there are not many Kamtsang Lamas nearby. There is a centre in Belgium, but the activities are on the weekends and I usually have translation responsibilities here.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Stewart » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Hey JKhedrup,

There is a Kamtsang Lama in Firesland in the north of Holland called Lama Gawang. If you get the chance to go to the Brussels centre go, it is a beautiful little place.

Generally, I just chanted the Ngondro text 'straight' with no tune. I am not sure which text you have, but I'm guessing it maybe the short Ngondro written by the 17th Karmapa.

I done the concise Jamgon Kongtrul text linked by Magnus earlier, Mingyur Rinpoche only had us do 10k of each part. He also gave pointing out instruction and the Karma Pakshi Guru Yoga (the terma of the 1st Mingyur Rinpoche) as part of his 3 year Mahamudra course.

Best wishes,
s.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:42 pm


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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Grigoris » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:18 pm

It's the standard Karma Kagyu text by the 9th Karmapa.
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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Stewart » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:05 pm

Sorry, you never said 'the chariot...'

That's the 9th Karmapa one.
Last edited by Stewart on Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Stewart » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:10 pm

Weird...JK's post was the last one when I replied...then I posted, and Greg's appeared!
s.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby JKhedrup » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:36 pm

For some reason 'chariot' does not appear on the cover page, just the introductory paragraph.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:15 am

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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Grigoris » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:28 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Stewart » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:12 am

The Karmapa chenno mantra is included the Ngondro...not the Karma Pakshi Sadhana....which is completely separate from the ngondro.

The KP sadhana is quite long and elaborate involving Tormas, a complex visualisation of an 8 deity mandala...many different mantras...Tsok etc. It's not simple.

I'd be surprised if it is included in the Samye Ling text, despite what the website says. I lived at Samye Ling for several years...it was never included then...maybe it's a recent addition.
s.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:14 pm

Maybe Rinpoche was indicating that he wanted us to do the Karma Pakshi sadhana when we had "completed" the ngondro, and that Lama Tsultrim Khandro (the resident lama in Jacksonville) could give us the lung. There were recordings made of the teachings, but not the empowerment, so I'd have to check... But honestly I don't remember him giving a lengthy transmission.

Question: In the standard text of the 9th Karmapa's Chariot, who is the Guru Yoga on? I haven't flipped ahead in 17th Karmapa's text to know what came from the 5th Shamarpa's text which it was based upon. Is it Vajradhara with the 4 qualities, or one of the founding fathers of Kagyu (Marla, Milarepa, Gampopa) like done in 3 year retreat?
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby conebeckham » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:35 pm

The "Chariot" guru yoga focuses on Vajradhara as one's root guru, along with all the Karmapas and Kamtsang Lamas...the Karmapa Khyenno mantra is used.

Karma Pakshi sadhana is usually practiced as one's primary practice after completion of ngondro, at many Karma Kagyu centers, including the KTD/KTC centers. It's a "LaDrup," or "Guru Sadhana," which is a bit different than Guru Yoga, though it incorporates the elements of Guru Yoga, it's also a sadhana that includes all three roots. There's no "Jenang" for Pakshi LaDrup--the empowerment is a terma empowerment, and there's only one--it's fairly short, though--not a major, two day Wangkur.

The "Chariot" also does include a short "GyunKher" or Daily Recitation of Vajrayogini, which may or may not be included in the text, and may or may not be included in the lung, depending.....it's true that normally Lamas require the Kamtsang Vajrayogini empowerment prior to giving that instruction and transmission. Keep in mind, though, that this Daily Recitation is not the full sadhana of Kamtsang Vajrayogini.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Palzang Jangchub » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:45 pm

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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme


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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:59 pm

I am not so clear on how the pre-requisite instructions work in the Karma Kagyu, to be honest.

It seems as if the Ngondro is a pre-requisite for yidam practices of the Highest Yoga Tantra class, is this the case?

And what about Guru Yogas? I remember at the Kagyu Monlam 2007 I attended, HH Karmapa UTD granted an initiation (from what I observed it seemed to be a jenang initiation) of Milarepa. I asked one of the Lamas sitting near me in the Sangha section about this initiation, and if it allowed one to do the Milarepa Guru Yoga sadhana. He said that certainly it did. Later on during the event, however, there was a Guru Milarepa Tsog feast ceremony, and the HH Karmapa as well as a later announcement said this was restricted to those who had completed a Kagyu Ngondro practice (some of the Nyingmas said actually HHK said any ngondro, but I did not hear well enough to know for sure).

So I have to admit, this left me confused. Is the Tsog portion of Lord Milarepa's sadhana considered HYT and the rest not?

Am I wrong for practicing the Guru Yoga of Milarepa with Tsog offering from time to time despite not finishing ngondro? What about the other guru Yogas, such as those of Gampopa and so forth?

Sorry if these questions are ignorant but in the Gelug tradition, where most of my teachers are from, the approach is very different. Ngondro is practiced throughout one's spiritual career and knowledge of the presentation of Renunciation, Bodhicitta and correct view is the most often stated pre-requisite for Highest Yoga Yidam practices.

That isn't to say Gelugpas don't do the preliminaries- Tsongkhapa did millions of accumulations at Wolka. Just that people would not be refused initiation into say, Yamantaka or Vajrayogini, if they hadn't completed them. Lamas sort of have their own pre-requisites according to their judgement. The senior Geshe here insists on people having kept refuge for at least five years.

I myself am doing the Kamtsang Ngondro- prostrations with refuge. But at the current rate it will take a long time to complete. I also have recitation commitments for several initiations from my Gelug teachers, so need to be balanced.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby Grigoris » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:49 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:04 pm

Last edited by JKhedrup on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Different(?) Forms of the Kamtsang Ngondro

Postby conebeckham » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:20 pm

The Milarepa LaDrup has only one "empowerment," as well. As fo rthe restrictions imposed on attendence, it varies.....in general, I would think anyone with HYT empowerment would be allowed, and attendence would vary based on the Vajra Master's instruction---So, in the specific case, HH Karmapa's restriction should be observed for that event. I have been present at Milarepa "tsoks" with people who had not completed ngondro, and the Vajra Master allowed it.

In general, ngondro is a prerequisite for HYT practice in the Karma Kagyu, but again...it depends on the Lama.

The Vajrayogini recitation at the end of "Chariot" is not the full mandala practice, but merely a means of keeping connection, really. But it's a practice that one wouldn't do without HYT empowerment.

Deity yoga, in general, is "part" of the Path of Liberation, which is the focus of the Kagyu ngondro---the spontaneously-coemergent Mahamudra. But it's not the same "deity yoga" path as that of the Path of Means, which relates to Creation and Completion in a more extensive form--the full sadhanas of the Three Main Kamtsang Yidams, and the Six Yogas of Naropa.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


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