Question About Chinese pure land

Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:59 pm

Hello Dharma friends

I have some of Question :

1 - In Japanese pure land . They say we are in the ending Age of Dharma . So no one can Attain Enlightenment in this Age .
Do chinese pure land say so ?

2- In Japanese pure land there Are two school . Jodo Shu And Jodo Shinshu .
How many school in Chinese pure land ?

3 - in 18th vow Of Amitabha he said just by calling his name just ten time you will born in pure land .
So why Chinese pure land practice in Amitabha name more then ten ?
And where buddha said in the sutra we have practice in Amitabha more then ten ?
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:34 am

If any of these are helpful...
1 - In Japanese pure land . They say we are in the ending Age of Dharma . So no one can Attain Enlightenment in this Age .
Do chinese pure land say so ?
For context & understanding from the scripture & Chinese Tradition, I am offering a read up on these three...
Firstly, the context and understanding on the real challenge & achievement of the Bodhisattva Path which leads to Buddhahood. From the Smaller Amitabha Sutra...
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/purelan ... s/id4.html
"Shariputra, just as I now praise the inconceivable virtue of other Buddhas, they also praise my inconceivable virtue, saying,
'Shakyamuni Buddha, you have accomplished an extremely difficult and unprecedented task.
In this Saha world, during the evil period of the five defilements -- those of time, views, passions, sentient beings, and life-span -- you have attained
the highest, perfect Enlightenment and, for the sake of sentient beings, have delivered this teaching, which is the most difficult in the world to accept in
faith.'
"Shariputra, you must realize that I have accomplished this difficult task during the period of the five defilements.
That is to say, having attained the highest, perfect Enlightenment, I have, for the sake of all the world, delivered this teaching, which is so hard for them to accept.
This is indeed an extremely difficult task."

Secondly, the context and understanding on the realities of our conditioned world, types of sentient beings and capacities, the availability of taking up the Path & obtaining the Fruit in our world by the heroic ones compared with Sukhavati. From the Larger Amitayus Sutra...
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/purelan ... s/id3.html
The Buddha said to Maitreya,
"People of this world are as I have described. All the Buddhas pity them and with divine powers destroy their evils and lead them all to goodness.
If you give up wrong views, hold fast to the scriptures and the precepts, and practice the Way without committing any fault, then you will finally be able to attain the path to emancipation and Nirvana."

The Buddha continued,
"You and other devas and humans of the present and people of future generations, having received the Buddha's teachings, should reflect upon them and, while following them, should remain upright in thought and do virtuous deeds. Rulers should abide by morality, reign with beneficence and decree that everyone should maintain proper conduct, revere the sages, respect men of virtue, be benevolent and kind to others, and take care not to disregard the Buddha's teachings and admonitions. All should seek emancipation, cut the roots of Samsara and its various evils, and so aspire to escape from the paths of immeasurable sorrow, fear and pain in the three evil realms.
"In this world, you should extensively plant roots of virtue, be benevolent, give generously, abstain from breaking the precepts, be patient and diligent, teach people with sincerity and wisdom, do virtuous deeds, and practice good. If you strictly observe the precepts of abstinence with upright thought and mindfulness even for a day and a night, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the land of Amitayus for a hundred years.

The reason is that in that Buddha-land of effortless spontaneity all the inhabitants do good without committing even a hair's breadth of evil.
If in this world you do good for ten days and nights, the merit acquired will surpass that of practicing good in the Buddha-land of other quarters for a thousand years.
The reason is that in the Buddha-land of other quarters many practice good and very few commit evil. They are lands where everything is naturally provided as a result of one's merit and virtue, and so no evil is done. But in this world much evil is committed, and few are provided for naturally; people must work hard to get what they want. Since they intend to deceive each other, their minds are troubled, their bodies exhausted, and they drink bitterness and eat hardship. In this way, they are preoccupied with their toil no have time for rest.

"Out of pity for you and other devas and humans, I have taken great pains in exhorting you to do good deeds. I have given you instructions appropriate to your capacities. You have, without fail, accepted my teachings and practiced them, and so have all entered on the Way as you wished.

The Buddha said to Maitreya,
"It is difficult to encounter and behold Tathagata when he is in this world. Difficult of access, difficult to hear are the Buddhas' teachings and scriptures.
It is also difficult to hear the excellent teachings for bodhisattvas, the Paramitas.
Difficult too is it to meet a good teacher, to hear the Dharma and perform the practices.
But most difficult of all difficulties is to hear this sutra, have faith in it with joy and hold fast to it. Nothing is more difficult than this.
Thus have I formed my Dharma, thus have I expounded my Dharma, and thus have I taught my Dharma.
You must receive it and practice it by the method prescribed."
Thirdly, a reading from this commentary

2- In Japanese pure land there Are two school . Jodo Shu And Jodo Shinshu .
How many school in Chinese pure land ?
There's only one but with two distinct kinds of practice, exclusive and combined, as segmented into four categories in the link here: 28) Buddha Recitation and the Four Practices

3 - in 18th vow Of Amitabha he said just by calling his name just ten time you will born in pure land .
So why Chinese pure land practice in Amitabha name more then ten ?
And where buddha said in the sutra we have practice in Amitabha more then ten ?
This is what the 18th Vow says...
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/purelan ... s/id2.html
If, when I attain Buddhahood, sentient beings in the lands of the ten quarters who sincerely and joyfully entrust themselves to me, desire to be born in my land, and call my Name, even ten times, should not be born there, may I not attain perfect Enlightenment. Excluded, however, are those who commit the five gravest offences and abuse the right Dharma.
Upon careful reading, it does not set the limit of a mere tenfold recitation but suggests that if one were to manage to just do only tenfold like those who are on the dying moments with confidence & trust for example, then this Vow is activated for them.
Balance this with other related texts...here is one for example
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/purelan ... s/id4.html
Shariputra, one cannot attain birth in that land with few roots of goodness or a small stock of merit.
Shariputra, if a good man or woman who hears of Amida Buddha holds fast to his Name even for one day, two days, three, four, five, six or seven days with a concentrated and undistracted mind, then, at the hour of death, Amida Buddha will appear before them with a host of Holy Ones.
Consequently, when their life comes to an end, the aspirants' minds will not fall into confusion and so they will be born immediately in the Land of Utmost Bliss of Amida Buddha.
Shariputra, perceiving these benefits, I say: All sentient beings who hear this teaching should aspire to birth in that land.
Read more here
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:15 am

Thank you very much . It is very helpful .
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby PorkChop » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:56 am

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Hello Dharma friends

I have some of Question :

1 - In Japanese pure land . They say we are in the ending Age of Dharma . So no one can Attain Enlightenment in this Age .
Do chinese pure land say so ?

2- In Japanese pure land there Are two school . Jodo Shu And Jodo Shinshu .
How many school in Chinese pure land ?

3 - in 18th vow Of Amitabha he said just by calling his name just ten time you will born in pure land .
So why Chinese pure land practice in Amitabha name more then ten ?
And where buddha said in the sutra we have practice in Amitabha more then ten ?


I'm not sure your post is reflecting an accurate understanding of Japanese Pure Land.

1. The stance from both Chinese & Japanese schools of Pure Land thought agree that the idea of "mappo" does not mean that "no one can Attain Enlightenment in this Age", rather that the number of people who are successful when following the "path of Sages" is a much lower percentage than those who enter the Dharma through the gate of Pure Land, especially when talking about those of lesser capacities.

Honen:
http://www.jsri.jp/English/Honen/TEACHI ... ation.html
"According to Honen's Muryojukyo-shaku, although the Tendai and Shingon sects teach that one can attain enlightenment in this very body, in the present age of the final Dharma, this is impossible for ordinary deluded beings."

"For Honen, Tao-ch'o taught the Pure Land Path over the Holy Path because in the age of the final Dharma these were the only teachings which deluded beings could realize. Honen selected Tao-ch'o's classification, because he felt if a profound teaching could not be realized, it was of no use to ordinary people. This emphasis on the salvation of ordinary people and thus of all beings is the point in Honen's classification which is more specifically emphasized than in the ones of Tao-ch'o, Shan-tao, and Genshin."

*note - "ordinary deluded beings" refers to those of lesser capabilities.

Shinran:
http://www.shinranworks.com/relatedworks/faithalone.htm
*Makes the comment that not 1 in millions will attain the path of sages, but then quotes ShanTao's number of 1 in thousands.

Chinese Buddhism:
http://www.ymba.org/ou-i-chih-hsu
"At thirty-one, Ou-i encountered a famous Zen teacher who showed him how degenerate Zen practice had become in their time. After this Ou-i turned away from Zen forms altogether: though he always acknowledged the genuine realization of the Zen masters, he had decided that Zen methods were too difficult for most people to follow, and that Zen in his time was mostly an intellectual plaything."

2. In China, the barriers between schools were never as strict as in Japan. All major forms of Chinese Buddhism endorse Pure Land practice. Many of the important works on Pure Land practice come from masters of the TianTai and Chan schools.

3. I recommend reading more on what Honen and Shinran each had to say on this issue. it's not as simple as you're making it out to be.

Honen:
http://www.jsri.jp/English/Honen/TEACHI ... iving.html"Honen once said, "It’s important that you should never forget the repetition of the nembutsu. Keep it in mind continually. Even though you do impure things or speak impure words, it is a fine thing to keep your heart pure and to say the nembutsu over and over again without stopping it even for a moment. If you go on repeating it at all times and under all circumstances, it will finally bring you to ojo - no doubt about it. Surely don’t imagine that it would be all right to put off the practice of the nembutsu on the grounds that it can be done at any time. On the contrary, don’t let a single moment pass in which you are not practicing it.”"

Shinran:
http://www.shinranworks.com/relatedwork ... cation.htm
"If, however, because of belief in this, you adhere single-mindedly to the position of birth through once-calling and declare that many-calling is erroneous, then do you intend to overlook the words of the Primal Vow, "Saying the Name perhaps even ten times," and ultimately take the teaching of saying the Name for one to seven days in the Smaller Sutra to be pointless? Do you also regard as erroneous the teaching of Master Shan-tao? Based on these sutra passages, he instructs us to practice without interruption for a long period of time:

Single-heartedly practicing the saying of the Name of Amida alone - whether walking, standing, sitting, or reclining - without regard to the length of time, and without abandoning it from moment to moment: this is called "the act of true settlement," for it is in accord with the Buddha's Vow.

Vow that to the end of this life there will be no retrogressing, and that you will make the Pure Land your single goal.

To break with Shan-tao's teaching and slander it after having once entered the Pure Land gate is to be an even greater enemy than people of other teachings and different understandings. Such people, forever remaining as stragglers in the three courses, have no chance of emerging; it is wretched. Hence it is taught:

The Buddha comes to welcome those who, at the upper limit, spend their entire lives in the nembutsu,
Down to those who say it only ten or three or five times.
Solely through the greatness of the universal Vow,
Foolish beings, when they become mindful of it, are brought to attain birth.

And further, one truly knows now, without so much as a single thought of doubt, that Amida's universal Primal Vow decisively enables all to attain birth, including those who say the Name even ten times, or even but hear it.

Those who say the Name for seven days or one day, down to ten voicings or one voicing - a single utterance - will unfailingly attain birth.

These passages teach beyond all doubt that there should be no controversy over the positions of once-calling and many-calling; the person who has simply entrusted himself to Amida's Vow should continue to say the nembutsu until the end of his life, with birth in the Pure Land as his goal. You must not cling to one or the other extreme. I have been unable to express my innermost thoughts as I would like; still, I hope the reader will be able to grasp my meaning through these notes."
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:34 am

Thank you very much for your reply .

Most of my Ideas on Japanese pure land I learn it from this website :
http://amida-ji-retreat-temple-romania. ... s.html?m=1
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby PorkChop » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:17 am

Arabic Buddhist wrote:Thank you very much for your reply .

Most of my Ideas on Japanese pure land I learn it from this website :
http://amida-ji-retreat-temple-romania. ... s.html?m=1


That guy's posted some very helpful videos on youtube.
However, I don't think I agree with some of his viewpoints and I think there are MANY in the Pure Land communities of Japan, China, Korea, Vietnam, and even the west who would disagree with many of his statements. If you follow his teachings on Pure Land, that's good, but I think you should also follow Honen and Shinran's advice (let alone Shakyamuni's advice) when it comes to respecting different schools & different viewpoints.
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Huifeng » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:49 am

It may be a bit misleading to really talk about a Chinese pure land "school". There are a huge number of people in Chinese Buddhism that practice pure land in some form of another. They may all sorts of different views and ideas about any given teaching or practice. There is no official orthodox interpretation, though there are a number of authoritative figures. So, it's kind of hard to posit a specific "school" of Chinese pure land.

~~ Huifeng
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:56 pm

2- In Japanese pure land there Are two school . Jodo Shu And Jodo Shinshu .
How many school in Chinese pure land ?
There's only one but with two distinct kinds of practice, exclusive and combined, as segmented into four categories in the link here: 28) Buddha Recitation and the Four Practices
If I may add on as an addendum, like the Japanese sister traditions, the Chinese Pure Land tradition, there's a line of 13 'Patriarchs' so far as can be seen here [those familiar with Chinese may visit here].

Now having mentioned that, there is a present day Master who is highly regarded for his great contributions to the Buddha Dharma in general, the Chinese Pure Land teaching and practice specifically and other fields in social, charitable & educational causes. Amongst some of his disciples and general admirers, he is viewed as the unofficial '14th Patriarch' but this is strictly a personal opinion and has never been claimed by the Master himself.

It must be mentioned that through what I have read and been told, the 'Pure Land Patriarchs' are selected based on their respective life contributions to the teaching and practice of Amitabha & Sukhavati besides other notable contributions these admirable ones have and many amongst them are even adepts in other Dharma practices like Ch'an & the esoteric. So, true to the original intent and form, its 'lineage' is not based on family genealogy, rebirth succession or mind transmissions.

It has been said that its centrality on the Doctrine & Discipline sets it above the heavy emphasis & importance on teachers and personalities found in others.
If ever there are 'gurus' in this Sukhavati tradition, it would have been the Sakyamuni & Amitabha Buddhas & the Great Bodhisattvas like Avalokitesvara, Mahastamaprapta, Samantabhadra, Manjusri and so forth. And having roots in Mahayana teaching, one would never fail to discern the influence of the Arya Indian Panditas like Nagarjuna, Asanga, Vasubandhu, Asvaghosa and so forth.
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:55 pm

Thank you Dharma Friends for your wonderful reply .

But when I read the practice. there are different between Chinese Masters ?
Master Shan tao said . just by saying the Amitabh name you will born in pure land ?
And other master and master chin kung said . Not just by saying the name you will born in pure land . You must practice Morality ?

So what I shall follow ?
Just by practice the name ?
Or practice the Name with Morality ?
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Astus » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:28 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:So what I shall follow ?
Just by practice the name ?
Or practice the Name with Morality ?


As Ven. Huifeng said already, Chinese Buddhism doesn't have schools like Japanese Buddhism. There are various outstanding teachers who say this or that about Pure Land. You follow what you have inclination to. Read widely and find the one that you feel drawn towards.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:44 pm

But when I read the practice. there are different between Chinese Masters ?
Master Shan tao said . just by saying the Amitabh name you will born in pure land ?
And other master and master chin kung said . Not just by saying the name you will born in pure land . You must practice Morality ?

If I may offer it in this way...

To a kid who's not ready for the dentist, you tell him/her to brush the teeth daily and eat less sweet stuff for the meantime.
To a kid who's half ready for the dentist, you tell him/her the benefits and the whys of going to the dentist.
To a kid who's ready for the dentist, you tell him/her on the actual appointment day and time.

According to sentient beings' disposition and capacity, different masters teach differently but with the same essence: faith, vows and practice.
The Buddha does the same. To different types and capacities of sentient beings, He may teach first on practices related to abstaining from unwholesome actions.
Then to yet another level, He speaks on practices related to performing wholesome actions. Then yet to another level, He explains on practices related to purifying the mind. To yet others, He teaches all three at once. To some, He uses silence. To others, He uses lengthy talks. To yet others, it can be just a short one.

So, one have to understand the context, time, maturity of audience, emphasis and so forth of why does so and so Master teach in such and such a way, examining them in the light of the available Doctrine & Discipline and other methods to see if what they are doing are expedients or the ultimate and for which level of practice and understanding. Like an peeling an onion, there are different layers to unravel. Therefore, it may be premature to conclude that it is contradictory.
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:46 pm

I have inclination to Shan tao and Honen teaching .
But when I read the The pure land Sutra and I read Buddha Speak About morality practice to be born in pure land . Then I have Doubt about Shan tao and Honen teaching .

So I am Confused .
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:50 pm

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Thus ... nd_Stories
PARABLE 0120: THIS MIND IS THE BUDDHA
"Once a monk asked Big Plum what [the famous Zen Patriarch] Matsu taught him.
Big Plum said, 'This mind is the Buddha.'
The monk replied, 'Nowadays Matsu teaches That which isn't the mind isn't the Buddha.'
To this Big Plum replied, 'Let him have That which isn't the mind isn't the Buddha. I'll stick with This mind is the Buddha.'
When he heard this story, Matsu said, 'The plum is ripe.'"

(Transmission of the Lamp, chapter 7).Red Pine: 116
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:03 pm

Thank you dear friend for you reply

But maybe If I know About Shan tao and Honen opinion About the morality practice in Amitabha sutra . I think my Doubt will vanish .

Do you have English website or pdf book about Shan tao and Honen Commentary on Amitabh sutra ?
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Astus » Sun Sep 08, 2013 5:45 pm

Arabic Buddhist wrote:I have inclination to Shan tao and Honen teaching .
But when I read the The pure land Sutra and I read Buddha Speak About morality practice to be born in pure land . Then I have Doubt about Shan tao and Honen teaching .

So I am Confused .


Honen's message is simple and straightforward: "There is no other reason or cause by which we can utterly believe in attaining birth in the Pure Land than the nembutsu itself." (Ichimai-kishomon)

It doesn't mean that we should act in an immoral way. Against that interpretation Honen spoke explicitly and emphatically. He says that doing good things is what all buddhas taught, but as ordinary beings evil acts are common. It should be clear that he means karmically evil, that is, acts that result in lower birth (see a summary here: Ten Meritorious and Ten Evil Actions). It is true that some of us can uphold a high moral standard, but most of us fail now and then. But no matter what, the condition of birth in the Pure Land is the nembutsu and nothing else. If you can do good things and avoid the bad ones, by all means do that. But don't be arrogant because of it. And if you find yourself lacking in certain aspects, don't feel down about it, don't be afraid that you lose your chance with Amida. If you can, correct yourself. If not, minimise the harm.

"While believing that even a man guilty of the ten evil deeds and the five deadly sins may be born into the Pure Land, let us, as far as we are concerned, not commit even the smallest sins. If this is true of the wicked, how much more of the good. We ought to continue the practice of the Nembutsu uninterruptedly, in the belief that ten repetitions, or even one, will not be in vain. If this is true of merely one repetition, how much more of many!"
(Honen the Buddhist Saint, p 30)

"Do not be worrying as to whether your evil passions are strong or otherwise, or whether your sins are light or heavy. Only invoke Amida's name with your lips, and let the conviction accompany the sound of your voice, that you will of a certainty be born into the Pure Land."
(p 31)

"Let the Nembutsu of the Original Vow stand by itself and receive help from no other quarter. By outside help I mean that of one's own wisdom, the observance of the commandments (sila), religious aspiration, deeds of charity, and the like. But the good man, as he is, and the bad man too, as he is, each in his own natural condition, should seek help nowhere except in the Nembutsu. But he is in harmony with the mind of the Buddha who practices it by giving up his wickedness and becoming good. A man who cannot make up his mind, but is always thinking himself unfit in this way or that, will not be sure of attaining birth into the Pure Land."
(p 32)
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby plwk » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:56 pm

The Commentary by both are not easily available and only in excerpts thus far. There's a link here that discusses on both. Here's another excerpt...
Q. Is it better to recite Nembutsu abstaining from doing evil and doing only good, or to recite Nembutsu believing only in the true wish of Amida Buddha?
A. Abstaining from the evil while doing good things is the total admonition of Buddha. But for us, living in the real world, we disobey the admonition, so by believing from the bottom of our hearts in the real wish of Amida Buddha to save all kinds of people, we are able to say "Namu Amida Butsu". Amida Buddha will lead all people into the Pure Land without any discrimination between people with or without wisdom, or between those who can or cannot keep the precepts. Please keep this in mind.
145 Clauses "Mondo"

In my own analysis...

Firstly, both masters, Shan Dao & Honen are advocates of the exclusive path of practice of nian fo / nembutsu for good reasons for focus and non confusion purposes.
But in doing so, neither one rejected sila practice but seemingly view it as a helpful natural consequence or at the very least, a supplement, as a result of faith, vows & practice in Amida. What they do seemingly reject is the kind of tainted practice of sila that is not in accord with the Buddha's mind and intent but rather a false notion of sila practice tainted with the ideas of a self and grasping. This is quite similar to what is mentioned in one Sutra of Upasaka Sila where it has one section devoted to explaining on the Bodhisattva practice of the Six Perfections, when is it a Perfection, when is it not a Perfection and details why and the answer is that if it Is done without the focus on the Bodhisattva Path, it's just a mundane effort and tainted with improper motivation, so does not qualify as a Bodhisattva Perfection.

Secondly, what they do also seem to agree is that the practice of morality is a supporting base for proper appreciation and practice of nembutsu.
But the reality is that most sentient beings in samsara do not have perfect sila practice. Amitabha Buddha in His great vows and compassion has offered the gift of Sukhavati to all without exception, those who observe the sila training perfectly and those who do not. But, no where in the Threefold Sutras nor in the writings of both masters do they endorse that the sila training is to be discarded but merely to state that it is a natural supporting base & consequence of reliance and practice of nembutsu. If one is sincerely & properly practicing the Nembutsu, the practice of sila should also be naturally forthcoming, no?
The Amida Name itself is the embodiment of sila, no? Think about it.

Thirdly, so, if that were the case, why imposed another artificial notion of 'observing sila' on oneself, when practicing the Nembutsu, sila should be a natural consequence and response? Of course one can expect plenty of set backs initially due to our conditioned beginingless ignorance but as time and practice matures, the results should be forthcoming, no? And if one encounters setbacks, one should constantly turn back to the practice & reliance on Nembutsu that is in accord with the Buddha's intent and mind, one's obscurations and obstacles becomes purified, hence, sila is no longer an issue for us but a natural consequence and response to the gift of Amida?

Fourthly, perhaps, there are some who think that they can still hope to indulge in samsara whilst hoping to get away with it with a ticket to Sukhavati?
Then isn't that the very notion and action of not having gratitude to Amida for His precious gift? Isn't that biting the very hand that is feeding one?
Even so, as a fully enlightened Buddha, He continues to extends His hand to all who would make a connection with Him.
Note the thing about 'connection'. So oft in Buddhism, we speak of creating causes and conditions. How precious is this human birth and chance. Yet, if there are those who still squander this, the Buddhas are still full of compassion for such but it does not mean that they lack wisdom to deal with such ignorance of beings.
Both Shan Dao and Honen spoke of the 'Three Minds' to be developed to avoid this kind of squandering.
http://www.jodo.org/about_hs/ho_teach.html
As we have noted, Honen's emphasis on the cosmic other power of nembutsu recitation may seem to be a radical departure from Shakyamuni's practices of precepts and meditation, which appear very concrete and self power oriented. Yet this reflects another surface level misunderstanding. Honen's teachings in particular, and the whole Pure Land tradition in general, reflect the vital core of Shakyamuni's fundamental teaching of Not-self (Skt. anatman, Jp. muga).

Any practice, be it meditation, observing the precepts, or chanting the nembutsu, that is filled with the desire for individual gain and higher states of egohood is inherently self power oriented. The other power of Amida which the Pure Land tradition and Honen so emphasize is none other than the selfless and compassionate nature of the bodhisattva realizing his/her vows to save all sentient beings. When we open ourselves to the other power of Amida's grace through chanting the nembutsu, we open ourselves to the Not-self nature of existence which Shakyamuni discovered in his contemplations.
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:05 pm

Thank you very much for your reply

I meant dear friend Astus . When master shan tao and master Honen read Amitabh sutra . Like THREE CONDITIONS this Quote from Abrc web :

" In the Amitabha Sutra, the Buddha further explained that to be reborn in the Western Pure Land, we have to be "good men and good women." The standard for this is the Three Conditions; thus, they are a crucial part of our practice, an integral component of rebirth in the Pure Land.

To achieve this rebirth, we need belief, vows, and practice—leading a moral life and chanting Amituofo mindfully.

The First Condition:
Be filial and care and provide for parents
Be respectful to and serve teachers
Be compassionate and do not kill
Cultivate the Ten Virtuous Deeds

The Second Condition:
Take the Three Refuges
Abide by all precepts
Behave in a dignified and appropriate manner

The Third Condition:
Generate the Bodhi mind
Believe deeply in the law of cause and effect
Recite and uphold the Mahayana sutras
Encourage others to advance on the path to enlightenment "

For example . Do they said THREE CONDITIONS practice is useful just in first Dharma Age . Or they have other obinions ?
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:10 pm

Thank you Plwk
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Arabic Buddhist » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:02 pm

Thank you dear dharma friend Plwk and Astus for your great effort to Answers my Questions .

I'm just consider about the right path to pure land .
Because there alot of paths . Maybe All of them right or maybe one of them is right .
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Re: Question About Chinese pure land

Postby Astus » Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:27 am

plwk wrote:If one is sincerely & properly practicing the Nembutsu, the practice of sila should also be naturally forthcoming, no? ... one's obscurations and obstacles becomes purified, hence, sila is no longer an issue for us but a natural consequence and response to the gift of Amida?


I have not seen such a connections stated anywhere, especially not Honen. Could you point to some sources here?

I'm also wary of equating other-power with no-self. From the point of view of the Path of Sages, it is neither a practice nor a realisation of emptiness. And from the Pure Land side, if other-power were a way to attain insight into no-self, one would not need to be born in the Pure Land.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T51n2076, p461b24-26)
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