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Did the Buddha experience dukkha? - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:03 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:48 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:09 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:31 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Cafael Dust
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Cafael Dust » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:31 pm

I think one difficulty is the notion of inherence. We are so habituated to the experience of suffering that it is not possible to form a mental image of what life would look like without it. It's like an impossible promise, something too good to be true. And in samsara, nothing is ever too good to be true, everything is lacking.

But then that's the whole point - that lack is what the Buddha identified. He pointed out the cause and the way to remove that cause. Can we find the optimism to allow at least the faint glimmer of this idea to take root in our minds; the idea that there is a life to lead so completely altered from our experience up till now, that in ways we as of yet cannot understand, nothing is in any way unsatisfactory?
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

Cafael Dust
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Cafael Dust » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:36 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:20 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:56 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:11 am

Greetings,

Indeed... just because something is dukkha vedanā (unpleasant feeling) for one person doesn't mean it's universally so for each and every sentient being.

Whether something is pleasant, unpleasant or neutral is actually an attribution made by the individual, rather than some absolute and objective quality - this is something that can be seen by oneself in meditation.

Even outside of meditation, personal taste is evident. For example, the sound of Bob Dylan is dukkha vedanā (unpleasant feeling) for me, whereas for some Dhamma Wheel members it is sukha vedanā (pleasant feeling). On the flipside, listening to Pet Shop Boys is sukha vedanā (pleasant feeling) for me, whereas for others it is dukkha vedanā (unpleasant feeling).

By learning not to grasp, the Buddha never turned any feeling into dukkha... at worst, experiences would have been upekkhā vedanā -- equanimous feeling, neither pleasant nor unpleasant.

Insisting that the Buddha experienced dukkha is an error attributable to incorrect understanding of the subjective nature of vedana and a fatalistic over-simplification of what dukkha (dissatisfaction / dissatisfactory experience) constitutes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Cafael Dust
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:02 am

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:40 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

Cafael Dust
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Cafael Dust » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:48 pm

Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:50 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Cafael Dust
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Cafael Dust » Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:19 am

Maybe so.

I think 'challenges' was the wrong word. 'Fulfills' might be better, because fulfillment replaces and transcends the assumptions which cleared the way. Consider that a truer understanding of the same statement may be achieved without the student altering the words he or she uses to express that understanding.

Also, when I say 'I see Buddhism more as a process than a dogma', I don't mean that it isn't dogmatic, but that the Buddha's assertions and their confirmation are a process, and that process is more, in an encompassing sense, not a discarding sense, what Buddhism is than any or all of the dogma.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Alex123
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:45 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:01 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:14 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:25 am

Greetings Kirk,

I think there we find a very lucid account of the Buddha's experience and relationship with the aggregates... one that is worthy of investigation and consideration. It is an account for which it would be unwise of us to over-simplify down to "the Buddha suffers".

The Buddha's upekkha knows no bounds and there is equanimity with regards to all formations (sankharupekkha)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:33 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: Did the Buddha experience dukkha?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:36 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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