the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: ex-vegans

Postby Monsoon » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:25 am

While I agree with your last paragraph, in principle, sadly you are stuck with the position that the only way for veganism to work is if everyone embraces it. That isn't likely to realistically happen until it is forced by harsh necessity. Creatures have come and gone on this planet, sometimes huge swathes and incredible dynasties of them. Perhaps we are part of the next extinction event. Whatever, the planet itself has time to outgrow us.

BTW, your second to last paragraph is just so much hogwash. I've lost count of the number of moronic and abusive cyclists that have crossed my path over the years: and this is spoken by someone has been both an ardent cyclist AND a car driver. People taking moral or responsible stances do not have a monopoly on good behaviour. Far from it in fact.
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:04 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:Veganism is a fad the same way that abolitionism was a fad...

There have been many societies without slavery, but, as far as I know, there has never been a vegetarian society, let alone a vegan one.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby seeker242 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:18 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thrasymachus wrote:Veganism is a fad the same way that abolitionism was a fad...

There have been many societies without slavery, but, as far as I know, there has never been a vegetarian society, let alone a vegan one.


Jain society has always been vegetarian. As far as vegan, it comes pretty close!
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:08 pm

The Jains are an interesting example. Is it true that India, or some part of it, at some time or other, could in fact have been described as a Jain society, and that, as a result, the majority of people were vegetarian? If you are referring to the Jains now, I would say that they do not constitute a "society" in the sense that I mean, but are a small religious community within a much larger society.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:38 pm

I was curious so I had a look through Dundas' "The Jains" and I found this interesting passage, from p. 177:
Strict and precisely defined vegetarianism, then, is the most tangible social expression of adherence to the doctrine of non-violence and the most significant marker of Jain identity.

In the light of this, it may seem strange that there is evidence that in ancient times Jain ascetics consumed meat. The most controversial example of this is the account in the ‘Exposition of Explanations’ of Mahavira’s recuperation after his duel of ascetic power with Makkhali Gosala in which the fordmaker is portrayed as asking a woman to send him as food a cock which has been killed by a cat rather than the two pigeons which she had prepared, on eating which he recovered. Such an interpretation became abhorrent by early medieval times and either this passage is interpreted to give a vegetarian gloss or words signifying types of fruit are substituted.

Nonetheless, it seems clear that the early Jain ascetics were not totally strict vegetarians and that, like the Buddhists, they could accept meat as alms if an animal had not been specifically killed for them. Svetambara monastic law also suggests that in certain exceptional circumstances such as famine or to cure an illness the consumption of meat was permitted.
ཨོཾ་མ་ཧཱ་ཤུནྱ་ཏཱ་ཛྙཱ་ན་བཛྲ་སྭཱ་བྷཱ་བ་ཨཱཏྨ་ཀོ་྅ཧཾ༔

The thousands of lines of the Prajnaparamita can be summed up in the following two sentences:
1) One should become a Bodhisattva (or, Buddha-to-be), i.e. one who is content with nothing less than all-knowledge attained through the perfection of wisdom for the sake of all beings.
2) There is no such thing as a Bodhisattva, or as all-knowledge, or as a ‘being’, or as the perfection of wisdom, or as an attainment.
To accept both these contradictory facts is to be perfect.
- Conze
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Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Alix1112 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:32 pm

As I approach taking on the five precepts - I reflect on the notion of eating meat. It's not something that I'm overly attached to and it's a good way to discipline myself I think for other things to come on the road to eventual (hopefully!) awakening/enlightenment. So I do have a game plan drawn up for building a vegan diet, but you see the thing is...

Can there be a low carb vegan diet? If one's staple cuisines are Chinese/Italian then probably not LOL. Both involve lots of rice, pasta, noodles etc and are grain heavy in lots of the recipes (OK, maybe Chinese more so than Italian).

So I'm thinking....

Veggie stir fry with tofu
The occasional pasta dish
Lots of salad
Low carb fruits (avocado, watermelon etc)
Soups (cream of mushroom, gaspatcho, pea soup)
Dumplings once in a while

Does anyone else have any other suggestions? Or anything to add about going low carb vegan?
ལྔ་བརྒྱ་ཐ་མར་གྱུར་པ་ན། །
ང་ཉིད་ཡི་གེའི་གཟུགས་སུ་གནས། །
ང་ཡིན་སྙམ་དུ་ཡིད་བྱོས་ལ། །
དེ་ཚེ་དེ་ལ་གུས་པར་གྱིས། །
In the last five hundred year period,
I will appear in the form of scriptures.
Consider them as identical to me,
And treat them with due respect.

- Sakyamuni Buddha
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Ayu » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:15 pm

If you avoid white carbs, like white rice, white bread and so on, it will be a great benefit for the diet.
Wholegrain noodles, black bread are wonderful food.

If you want to cancle these things totally, you'll have to become well in cooking vegetables. There are 1001 possible dishes. Because Tofu tastes good for sometimes - but not every day - imho.
Another nice thing to frie salty is gluten. It is the protein in wheat flour and you can wash it out of dough balls. Or maybe one can buy it also.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Luke » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:11 pm

Ayu wrote:Another nice thing to frie salty is gluten. It is the protein in wheat flour and you can wash it out of dough balls. Or maybe one can buy it also.

Is that the same as seitan? That could work...

It looks pretty good nutritionally! :twothumbsup:

http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calori ... jg5Nw.html
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby seeker242 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:44 pm

Just curious. Why would you want a low carb vegan diet to begin with? I understand the vegan part but not the low carb part!
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Derek » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:46 am

There's a lot of conflicting advice out there on the Internet, isn't there?

I've seen some studies that show that low-carb, plant-based diets are superior for reducing blood pressure, weight, and cholesterol.

Here's one that's widely available on the Internet:

David J. A. Jenkins, MD; Julia M. W. Wong, RD; Cyril W. C. Kendall, PhD; Amin Esfahani, MSc; Vivian W. Y. Ng, RD; Tracy C. K. Leong, BASc; Dorothea A. Faulkner, PhD; Ed Vidgen, BSc; Kathryn A. Greaves, PhD; Gregory Paul, PhD; William Singer, MD. "The Effect of a Plant-Based Low-Carbohydrate ('Eco-Atkins') Diet on Body Weight and Blood Lipid Concentrations in Hyperlipidemic Subjects." Arch. Intern. Med., 2009, vol. 169, no. 11, pp. 1046-1054.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Derek » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:09 am

Another one from Dr. Jenkins of the University of Toronto:

"Compared with the starch-based and low-fat diets, the high-fiber vegetable diet resulted in the largest reduction in low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol (33% +/- 4%, P <.001)."

Jenkins DJ, Kendall CW, Popovich DG, Vidgen E, Mehling CC, Vuksan V, Ransom TP, Rao AV, Rosenberg-Zand R, Tariq N, Corey P, Jones PJ, Raeini M, Story JA, Furumoto EJ, Illingworth DR, Pappu AS, Connelly PW. "Effect of a very-high-fiber vegetable, fruit, and nut diet on serum lipids and colonic function." Metabolism, 2001 April, vol. 50, no. 4, pp. 494-503.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Derek » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:34 am

An odd paradox occurs to me.

If I had to live off locally produced food, my diet would consist solely of beef and wheat.

This "eco diet" is only made by possible by industrialization. :?
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Ayu » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:20 am

Luke wrote:
Ayu wrote:Another nice thing to frie salty is gluten. It is the protein in wheat flour and you can wash it out of dough balls. Or maybe one can buy it also.

Is that the same as seitan? That could work...

It looks pretty good nutritionally! :twothumbsup:

http://www.calorieking.com/foods/calori ... jg5Nw.html

Ah, yes - i didn't know it is the same. :smile:

http://www.vrg.org/recipes/vjseitan.htm
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Luke » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:54 pm

Derek wrote:There's a lot of conflicting advice out there on the Internet, isn't there?

I've seen some studies that show that low-carb, plant-based diets are superior for reducing blood pressure, weight, and cholesterol.

Yes, you can probably find a study to prove anything you want. Also, there are organizations which will not fund research unless it aims to prove something which they already believe in.

Anyway, losing "weight" is very vague: we don't know how much of the weight lost was muscle, fat, or water.

Hell, if you want to lose weight, just eat nothing for 2 days while you drink only water! lol Here you'll lose a lot of water weight as well as some fat and muscle.

I don't have time to read that study right now.

If you want the long answer about the benefits of low carb diets and the almost conspiracy against them read this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Calories-B ... ary+taubes
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Luke » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:57 pm

seeker242 wrote:Just curious. Why would you want a low carb vegan diet to begin with? I understand the vegan part but not the low carb part!


It depends on your body. People who are very insulin senstive have a hard time losing fat unless they significantly reduce carbs. People who are not very insulin sensitve can lose fat while eating more carbs.

A guy at my gym looks like Wolverine and has very low body fat in addition to being very muscular. I asked him what he eats and he basically eats a high fat, high protein diet with very few carbs (he NEVER EVER eats bread or pasta! Although he eats some rice occasionally). So some people definitely get great results from low carb diets. Vegetarians who have no experience with the fitness community have their heads in the sand on this issue.

Basically, it's like this: If you have been able to lose all the fat you want on a high-carb diet, then good, you found something that works for you. Good for you.

But if you have tried a variety of high-carb diets and have not been able to lose the fat you want to lose, then you might find a low-carb diet extremely effective!

It all depends on your goals and on what you find important.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby PlayfulKindness » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:11 am

Hiya,
I'm a vegan! I'm not a low carb vegan though, but I do have to watch the glycemic index of the foods I eat, as I have diabetes.
A low (but not no) carb vegan diet is surely possible, but I think it would get bland.
Right now my favourite protein source is seitan (wheat gluten). It's expensive to buy, but cheap, easy and better tasting to make.
I also know a lot of vegans who also follow a no gluten diet.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:18 am

Alix1112 wrote:Does anyone else have any other suggestions? Or anything to add about going low carb vegan?


Nuts! Peanuts, pistachios, cashews, etc. are tasty, filling. But be careful not to eat too many; it is about one of the only ways a vegan could get fat.
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Re: Low carb vegan diet?

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:20 pm

Low carb diets are nonsense and unhealthy. What makes you fat is eating concentrated calories that are mostly protein and fat, not carbs. Low carb puts your body in ketosis because your body needs carbs but you are starved of them, it is literally a form of unhealthy, macro-nutrient starvation. Your body can convert protein and fat to carbs, however, that takes energy and vital effort. It works for a while because this actual conversion takes energy and burns extra calories. It is a short-term trick used for fat meat-eaters that works only temporarily since short term this ketosis will help you lose weight, but eventually you gain it back and get even unhealthier since you are taking on more cholesterol, fat and protein in absence of the carbs you are avoiding. That is why there are so many different marketing gimmicks and marketers presenting their own version of this fad diet like the original Atkins Diet, Dukan, Eco-Atkins, Medifast, the Paleo Diet, and the South Beach Diet. If low carb is so good and successful why keep re-branding it for the idiots as Atkins on down become discredited?

However, stay away from overly refined carbs like white bread made of bleached flour. White flour is finely ground it does not have any fiber and it spikes your blood sugar, increasing your weight gain. Instead eat whole wheat flour products which have lots of fiber and are absorbed slower. Stay away from potato chips, instead eat baked potatoes, etc.

And for your own sake get some proper dietary advice from one of the following:
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, Dr. Neil Bernard, Dr. John McDougall, Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Gary Null, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Thrasymachus » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:04 pm

Monsoon wrote:BTW, your second to last paragraph is just so much hogwash. I've lost count of the number of moronic and abusive cyclists that have crossed my path over the years: and this is spoken by someone has been both an ardent cyclist AND a car driver. People taking moral or responsible stances do not have a monopoly on good behaviour. Far from it in fact.


It is not good cyclist and good motorists, versus bad cyclists and bad motorists. That is a fantasy of members of a society who want to engage in so much escapism most upper end motor vehicles tend to have several LCDs or LEDs installed so they can watch television or other media! What predominates in the English speaking countries is exactly a system of transportation apartheid that disadvantages and disenfranchises everyone who out of poverty, personal choice or ill-circumstance cannot or will not use a motor vehicle. There are hundreds of thousands of places, probably millions of places, you cannot get to on foot, by bicycle or any form of public transit.

Here is the most loaded and fictional example in favor a bike vs a car in a head on crash:
I am a bicyclist weighing 300 lbs., on a heavy 60 lbs. bicycle going 60 mph down a very steep hill. I hit a parked car weighing 2000 lbs.

Will the car have anything but superficial damage? Now what about the human cyclist?

Good motorists and bad cyclists, what a load of crap, if I ever heard it. Cars are inherently dangerous, polluting, space wasting and traffic causing. The only way they appear efficient in their false manner is because of apartheid like subsidies and planning that caters to the automobile over all the other more efficient methods like public transport, walking or bicycling.
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Re: ex-vegans

Postby Qing Tian » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:45 pm

Way to miss the point: which was that neither cyclists nor motorists have a monopoly on moral behaviour.

Here is the most loaded and fictional example in favor a bike vs a car in a head on crash:
I am a bicyclist weighing 300 lbs., on a heavy 60 lbs. bicycle going 60 mph down a very steep hill. I hit a parked car weighing 2000 lbs.

Will the car have anything but superficial damage? Now what about the human cyclist?


Loaded and fictional it certainly is. The parked car can be replaced by any sufficiently massive stationary object - lamppost, building, fire hydrant etc. You gonna have a pop at them too?

Also consider in your awful example if that cyclist hit a stationary pedestrian. What the outcome then?

It's a ridiculous argument. Yes cycling is far gentler on the environment and is great for health. Yes the transport infrastructure is not favourable to the cyclist. Yes the motor vehicle is destructive on many levels. None of this is really up for debate. However, as the system is what it is, and both cyclists and drivers of motor vehicles have to share the same space, it behooves both groups to behave responsibly toward each other and the larger public. Many cyclists are as aggressive and just plain stupid as their motorcar driving counterparts.

Deal with it.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”
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