Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

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Qing Tian
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Qing Tian » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:15 pm

Forgive me but I feel I must say that I disagree with the Ven. Indrajala, Ven JKhedrup and the inestimable Sherab Dorje on the issue of speaking out against injustice. The argument is presented as black and white: not speaking out is bad versus speaking out is good. However, given the nature of humans perhaps neither speaking out nor refraining from speaking out represent the only approaches to the problems of these injustices? For the sake of a not very good example, perhaps speaking out raises awareness in the liberal places but further inflames the not-so-liberal places and causes them to close ranks and dig their heels in all the more?

My point, thoguh poorly expressed, is that both sides of the argument are presenting their view as the one right solutution. Whereas I am suggesting that we should look deeper for solutions that are more appropriate and applicable to the task at hand.

Once again, apologies for disagreeing.
“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”

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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:19 pm

I never said that one should not speak out. I said that one must be aware how they speak out, be aware of the ultimate futility of trying to fix samsara, not lose sight of the workings of karma and keep in mind the impermanent nature of views.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Karma Dorje » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:15 am

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:01 am

Who said anything about throwing ones hands in the air?

I'm not going to explain my position a fourth time, I am just going to ask one question:

If the situation does not have to do with karma, then can somebody explain to me what it has to do with? God? Luck? Fate?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

muni
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby muni » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:31 am

In order to deal with those who harm us we have the Buddhas teachings. A helpful one: patience. Then it is easier to get some clarity in own mind, so that we don't lose compassion.
As far as I understand by recognizing ones own defilements, as being ones own suffering, boundless compassion flows by free sail without any particular direction.

In samsara we learn how to purify/transform/transcend ( and all these words...) others mind and have/want compassion/love/joy... for oneself. Buddha thaught another way.

Whatever which religion they/we belong too, they/we are all Buddhas, temporary not seen due to our misperception. This makes as well clear that the word Buddha is not some thing like all words which truly exist and so belongs to what we call Buddhists. It is simple nature always awake, nature like it is. No any'being' is not like that.

:focus:

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Malcolm
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:04 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

uan
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby uan » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:44 pm


JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:48 pm

Last time I try to use complex political terms :tongue:

Libtard sounds a bit too Ann Coulter for my taste, but I do get the meaning.

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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:54 pm


uan
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby uan » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:21 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 6:47 am

When you start a post with blanket condemnations (calling everybody that does not agree with you "PC police"), go on to make unsubstaniated claims and generalisations, call other peoples opinions "crap" and then indirectly refer to the second largest religion in the world as a "turd" then you are gulity of hate speech, even if you are so blinded by your aversion that you cannot see it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:42 am

Uan thank you forposting the Cairo declaration, I will definitely read up on it, my ignoranc of it is not a good thing.

I agree name calling accomplishes nothing and should be avoided in discussions, legally in Canada you could be fined for it(though I don't think it should get you beaten up or killed, as has hapoened here in Holland for example).

But, for example, do you consider the Fatwa issued against Salman Rushdie hate speech? It prevents his freedom of movement, even to his own country of birth, India. I would say putting a price on someone's head is hate speech even if based on religious belief.

Shoulds are difficult but I guess the issue here is what peopke consider an essential human right versus what is negotiable according to Cultural considerations. I do not think that people should be shackled to religion that they mayvhave simply been born into because of the fear of death or imprisonment under Apostasy laws.

One Muslim community leader who I spokevto in Toronto told me that if one follows Islam properly, it is not just a religion, it is also a political and social system. (My views are not uninformed, as I have read the Koran and spoken to several Muskim scholars).

If Dominionist Christians took over the American government (thankfully they have not), I would have some of the same concerns. The reality is, Isllam is both the government and courts in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Somalia, parts of Nigeria, parts of Afghanistan, and in many other countries some elements of it are incorporated, such as the marriage laws in Malaysia. If these laws were not under the banner of religion, people would be more likely to speak out. But since they are, it poses many problems for dialogue.

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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:00 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:23 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:37 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:47 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:31 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:44 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby Grigoris » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:22 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Ajahn Sujato on hate speech re:Buddhists in Aus. mosque

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:45 am



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