China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa City in

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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:01 pm

Indrajala wrote:
Humour isn't a sin. You should be able to laugh at Hyecho and his silly remark.



Humor is not a sin; bringing up that citation in the context this discussion shows an appalling lack of proportion.


Jeff, you need to study the history of Central Asia a little more carefully: it is certain that this monk's view of Tibetans was
jaundiced by the fact that Tibetans (from Lhasa) held sovereignty over large swaths of Central Asia.



Sure, but the Tang history gives detailed observations of the Tibetan culture and habits at the time. Hyecho isn't my only source.


Consider the source: the Chinese have had nothing good to say about Tibetans since Minister Gar tricked the emperor out of his prized daughter.




Naw. I just counter the overzealous hype over Tibet.


No, Jeff -- your participation here was not countering any overzealous hype about Tibet. Anyone reading the thread can see this. What anyone can also see is that someone who claims to be Buddhist monk is casting racist aspersions about Tibetans, which they should not do, just as they should not invent and spread racist myths about Muslims -- which unfortunately happens in Tibet these days a lot. Tibetans happen to be very racist people in general. So when I hear racist things coming out of the mouths of Tibetans about westerners, or Muslims or Chinese people I become equally annoyed.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Conditions in India are different -- it is hot, people are much hairier -- Tibetans have virtually no body hair in general.


Hey buddy, this is racial stereotyping!

I don't appreciate the blatant racism that you displayed in that post.


:tongue:
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby anjali » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:53 pm

I'd like to take discussion of Tibet's material civilization and turn toward the topic of this thread. I think what we can reasonably agree on is that Tibetan people for the most part have lived very simple material lives. Given the Chinese invasion, does that make it more or less likely that the Tibetan people can be subjugated? People who tend to be independent and don't have much need for "stuff" might be pretty hard to manipulate. If it is true that Buddhism is the primary integrating aspect of Tibetan culture, it is no wonder that China wants to eradicate Buddhism in Tibet.

At the level of indoctrination and control, the best place to do it is with children. I have heard that schools are not allowed to teach Tibetan but must instead teach Chinese. Also, if China can get people to want "stuff", then those people naturally become more compliant and integrated Chinese materialist norms.

Earlier Malcolm mentioned the word siege in reference to institutional buddhism. The implicit concern that the subject of this tread points to is the continued siege by the Chinese on the Tibetan identity. From the limited info I have, coming from documentaries and such, is that, on the whole, Tibetans are losing via a war of attrition. Is there really any serious hope that the Tibetan people, and the Dharma, can survive the Chinese onslaught? It would actually be nice to hear some "ground truth" from people who have insight into what is going on in Tibet these days. But maybe it's such a sensitive topic no one in the know wants to share what they know.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:03 pm

JKhedrup wrote:
To be frank I am surprised you would quote such a source and give it so much credence.


:stirthepot:

There is some credence to what Indrajala brought up though. Looking at the Incan civilization, we see that they developed running water, baths, etc. within similar conditions (of the Tibetans) in the Andes mountians....

http://enperublog.com/2009/07/08/surprising-water-engineering-at-machu-picchu/

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g294314-d553950-Reviews-Inca_Baths_at_Tambomachay-Cusco_Cusco_Region.html
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby brendan » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
I understand western civilizations so called achievements are not a manifestation of "right view" and could be seen as being demonic.


You are making an idiot of yourself by such declarations.



Why? climate change seems to be a direct result of our progress.

Also were does one draw the line on merit accumulating activity. Surely wanting to look after ones citizens while in harmony with the earth are such actions providing one has right view and bodhichitta.

You cant make a comparison with western civilisation due to there being no claims of Realised Masters or Dharma in these civilisations. As opposed to the Tibetan civilisation claims many through its history.

Like I typed earlier (not that my point means much) I have lived and still do with native Tibetans and most of them agree, some argue this quite strongly.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby zangskar » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:35 am

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
To be frank I am surprised you would quote such a source and give it so much credence.


:stirthepot:

There is some credence to what Indrajala brought up though. Looking at the Incan civilization, we see that they developed running water, baths, etc. within similar conditions (of the Tibetans) in the Andes mountians.... ]

So, if Tibet had just had Llamas and coca leaves instead of Lamas and butter tea they would probably have made toilets their great civilizational mission instead of Buddhism? ;)
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:27 am

brendan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:
I understand western civilizations so called achievements are not a manifestation of "right view" and could be seen as being demonic.


You are making an idiot of yourself by such declarations.



Why? climate change seems to be a direct result of our progress.



There is no teaching in the Dharma that declares useful things "demonic" or somehow lacking "right view".
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:42 am

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
JKhedrup wrote:
To be frank I am surprised you would quote such a source and give it so much credence.


:stirthepot:

There is some credence to what Indrajala brought up though. Looking at the Incan civilization, we see that they developed running water, baths, etc. within similar conditions (of the Tibetans) in the Andes mountians....

http://enperublog.com/2009/07/08/surprising-water-engineering-at-machu-picchu/

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g294314-d553950-Reviews-Inca_Baths_at_Tambomachay-Cusco_Cusco_Region.html


Actually, there is major difference between Tibet and the Andes: water. Water was never in shortage in Tibet. A major river runs right through the center of the country fed by smaller rives on both sides. Tibetan "urban" civilization was entirely clustered around rivers. Indeed, it is supposed that the Zhang Zhung civilization centered around Kailash collapsed because of climate change, pushing the Zhang Zhung tribes into lower part of the what is the modern day TAR where there was more water.

The Andes, by comparison, are really quite dry, so water is much more of an issue for the Incas.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby brendan » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
brendan wrote:[quote="Malcolm

I understand western civilizations so called achievements are not a manifestation of "right view" and could be seen as being demonic.


You are making an idiot of yourself by such declarations.



Why? climate change seems to be a direct result of our progress.
[/quote]


There is no teaching in the Dharma that declares useful things "demonic" or somehow lacking "right view".[/quote]

I understand that and thanks for highlighting it, but your view on this seems to be contradictory.

How can you type that but also claim there were social advancements in pre-PRC Tibetan civilisation equal to that of western civilisation who had no Realized Masters or Dharma.

I understand that and thanks for highlighting it, but your view on this seems to be potatoes-potatoes.

Also our progress is still harming the environment in an aggressive and violent way (I understand there have also been major benefits).
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:09 am

brendan wrote:How can you type that but also claim there were social advancements in pre-PRC Tibetan civilisation equal to that of western civilisation who had no Realized Masters or Dharma.



This has nothing at all do with the whether there are more realized Tibetan masters in Tibet or India.

There are more realized Buddha masters (of Vajrayāna) with the borders of Tibet than without. I was not making any sort of claim about Indian civilization, Tibetan Cvilization, Western Civilization and so on. You were the one who introduced this into the discussion.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Lotus_Bitch » Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:
Actually, there is major difference between Tibet and the Andes: water. Water was never in shortage in Tibet. A major river runs right through the center of the country fed by smaller rives on both sides. Tibetan "urban" civilization was entirely clustered around rivers. Indeed, it is supposed that the Zhang Zhung civilization centered around Kailash collapsed because of climate change, pushing the Zhang Zhung tribes into lower part of the what is the modern day TAR where there was more water.

The Andes, by comparison, are really quite dry, so water is much more of an issue for the Incas.


I don't think you could generalize about the Andes like that, the altiplano sure, but even then there's the Apurimac river to the West of Cusco with the Urubamba flanking East also.
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Re: China destroys the ancient Buddhist symbols of Lhasa Cit

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:17 pm

Lotus_Bitch wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Lotus_Bitch wrote:
Actually, there is major difference between Tibet and the Andes: water. Water was never in shortage in Tibet. A major river runs right through the center of the country fed by smaller rives on both sides. Tibetan "urban" civilization was entirely clustered around rivers. Indeed, it is supposed that the Zhang Zhung civilization centered around Kailash collapsed because of climate change, pushing the Zhang Zhung tribes into lower part of the what is the modern day TAR where there was more water.

The Andes, by comparison, are really quite dry, so water is much more of an issue for the Incas.


I don't think you could generalize about the Andes like that, the altiplano sure, but even then there's the Apurimac river to the West of Cusco with the Urubamba flanking East also.



There is nothing in Andes that resembles the Tsangpo river.
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