Does Zen have ethics?

Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:00 pm

The point is, you don't trust those guidelines which you are trying to impose on others. That's why you will break them so easily, just to look... good. Anyway, Zen have ethics for those incapable to understand. Those are the ones who claim that high teachings which makes everything clear, are not for beginners, etc. Of course this is easy to disprove, but I am not the one that will chase others with explanations while they are covering their ears.
Something from a guy you mentioned:
Rinzai wrote:Young students, not understanding anything, put their faith in wild fox sprites and so get entangled in their random talk and fancies such as that in the law, theory and practice must tally, to
guard against the three karmic actions and so to attain Buddhahood. Such and other discourses are as frequent as April showers.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:21 pm

Well there is no answer to constant personal judgments.. you use in completely wrong way quotations just to give what? Any sort of teachings? As I wrote before you completely misunderstand karma, if your view is in what you have presented, and it has nothing to do with your claim of INGA MUJIN or mixing up with it, which I could detect in your writtings, simply you presented non-buddhist view on basic understanding of karma which is basis for further mistakes.. and Rinzai zenji will not help you anyway.. and Astus already very kindly tried to show you this point... in the meantime I went through some pages of Daiun roshi's opus magnum - Shushogi commentary - widely acknowledeged by zen teachers in Japan, and he goes in details concerning karma, concluding that for those who are misguided on that point there is no way to enlightenmet or buddhahood... so please leave aside your personal view of my lack of trust in dharma for yourself and simply check with any real master your views free of judgment or personal agenda.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:25 pm

you , you ,you,you... you.
Carry on.
PS. I didn't provide my view on karma, I just presented the consequences of your view, which appeared to totally inconsistent.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:44 pm

there is real problem right at hand...
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:48 pm

Matylda wrote:there is real problem right at hand...

What can I say...
Ask a teacher! As you seems to be not listening to reason.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby shel » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:23 pm

Matylda wrote:Yes of course, I constantly break precepts, due to habits, it is natural consequence of being mortal, or samsaric being...


Yes of course, and Zen masters are mortal beings in samsara also, hence this topic.



p.s.: are there immortal nirvana beings? :tongue:
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:22 am

shel wrote:
Matylda wrote:Yes of course, I constantly break precepts, due to habits, it is natural consequence of being mortal, or samsaric being...


Yes of course, and Zen masters are mortal beings in samsara also, hence this topic.


Do you really think so? Even if you do, then why do you mix me up with zen masters? I am not a zen master... and I am not sure if you know any master personally. Easy judgments come from lack of knowledge. And as I told you before nobody is forcing you to follow zen or zen masters.. you can drop tchem completely, there is no point to stand at the road and count their fails, since it is failure itself :)
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:25 am

oushi wrote:Ask a teacher! As you seems to be not listening to reason.


Of course I do not listen to your reason, since it is not in accordance with zen teaching... I have asked you for the source of your reason or otherwise who taught you such things... there was no answer yet..
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby shel » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:03 am

Matylda wrote:
shel wrote:Yes of course, and Zen masters are mortal beings in samsara also, hence this topic.

Do you really think so?

The past conduct of realized and transmitted Zen masters makes the topic question (does Zen have ethics?) a good one. If they had behaved differently the question would not have been asked.

Even if you do, then why do you mix me up with zen masters? I am not a zen master...

Much of the confusion in the current discussion seems to stem from your command of the English language. Not your native language it seems. For your information, also means in addition to. So there is you, and there is Zen masters also. Is that clearer now?

It would not surprise me in the least if you were a Zen master, incidentally.

and I am not sure if you know any master personally.

I'm sure you're not sure, but what about you? Who is your master, or is that secret? :spy:

Easy judgments come from lack of knowledge.

It's not clear what judgements you are referring to. The immediate point is that the topic exists because of the past conduct of Zen masters and their students. That conduct calls into question the ethics of the tradition. If you disagree with this point maybe you can explain why.

And as I told you before nobody is forcing you to follow zen or zen masters..

I don't recall you telling me that before. How is this relevant to the topic?

you can drop tchem completely, there is no point to stand at the road and count their fails, since it is failure itself :)

The point of recognizing failures is to learn from mistakes so as not to repeat them, and to protect the innocent.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:04 am

oushi wrote: :focus:


Just while reading Shushogi commentary I remembered statement that those teachings on ethics are not important in zen. Well so I looked how much or how many pages it takes in Daiun's commentary, and on ethics it goes from page 97 to page 555, so more than 450 pages... the whole text has 800 pages :D

Well there was another teaching by Menzan Zuiho, there was a new edition of his text on precepts, and there was bibliography of commentaries on precepts, not all but those most important in zen, the list was over 200 titels. So I am saying more or less about the statistics concerning the volume of the teachings on ethics just in one zen school...

But I have never seen even one classic text translated into English or any other Western language. I am afraid that zen followers in the West had no chance to have contact with that part of zen teaching. I have seen only one book of Aitken in English, and I have seen thousand of titles related to the word zen on catalogue list.

Another hint of memory... the main event of the year in soto monastery is Jukai, very important thing. And Jukai takes one week, which means one week teaching on ethics by 3 teachers... rinzai monasteries also have exactly same event with lots of teaching on ethics-precepts...
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:01 am

Maybe that's what killed Zen in Japan... It I a common phenomena that number of precepts and commandments increases with time, no matter what religion or tradition we look at.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby yan kong » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:27 am

oushi wrote:Maybe that's what killed Zen in Japan... It I a common phenomena that number of precepts and commandments increases with time, no matter what religion or tradition we look at.


Ethics? I would say a lack of them or at least a disregard for them would be what killed it.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:00 am

yan kong wrote:
oushi wrote:Maybe that's what killed Zen in Japan... It I a common phenomena that number of precepts and commandments increases with time, no matter what religion or tradition we look at.


Ethics? I would say a lack of them or at least a disregard for them would be what killed it.

Disregard is just another consequence of blind manufacturing rules, and precepts. That's why we see only people trying to fulfill them, and nobody actually doing so. Every ethical rule you adopt, will tighten the grip of conscience. So, it becomes easier and easier to break conscience, which causes suffering directly. Often, on forums like that questions are posted regarding the fact that somebody have to kill lice, or put food into refrigerator which will cause all the microorganisms to die. Because of this or that vow, he suffers.

Although it may seem that there may be only positive consequences of more ethical rules, but actually its the other way around.
It's similar to the physical characteristics of a Buddha. By adding more and more, we end up with a monstrosity.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:58 am

oushi wrote:Maybe that's what killed Zen in Japan... It I a common phenomena that number of precepts and commandments increases with time, no matter what religion or tradition we look at.


Did you visit Japan and did training there, that you say that zen was killed over there? It is very strange idea...
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:04 am

yan kong wrote:Ethics? I would say a lack of them or at least a disregard for them would be what killed it.



It is really heavy accusation I should say.. are you aware of what you are writting about? How did you come to point that ethics lacked or were disregarded?
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:25 am

Matylda wrote:
oushi wrote:Maybe that's what killed Zen in Japan... It I a common phenomena that number of precepts and commandments increases with time, no matter what religion or tradition we look at.


Did you visit Japan and did training there, that you say that zen was killed over there? It is very strange idea...

I already said whose idea was that. Yamada Mumon, a very prominent Rinzai Roshi. He was from Japan, you know.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby Matylda » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:32 pm

oushi wrote:
Matylda wrote:
oushi wrote:Maybe that's what killed Zen in Japan... It I a common phenomena that number of precepts and commandments increases with time, no matter what religion or tradition we look at.


Did you visit Japan and did training there, that you say that zen was killed over there? It is very strange idea...

I already said whose idea was that. Yamada Mumon, a very prominent Rinzai Roshi. He was from Japan, you know.


Do not manipulate, it is not what he said but you try to make up from his statement this what he even did not suggest.. it is really serious what you try to do. He was not concerned with precepts and commandments which ''kill'' zen. But with changes after war in Japan and lack of interest in zen in 50ties and 60ties.. Japanese society was over concerned with economic growth not with spiritual values.

Actaully first teacher of Mumon roshi, Ekai roshi was strict on precepts, and Mumon went through very disciplined time with him... but was strongly drawn toward Ekai due to his teachings on bodhicitta, which Ekai taught from Bodhicharyavatara of Shantideva.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby oushi » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:25 pm

And what is this that needs to be re-imported from US? People?

It needs to be clarified that we are talking here about Zen Buddhism, not Zen itself. Zen is unborn thus immortal, it cannot be dead. It's the religious cover that can be dead, or alive. There are many schools that died out. Why? There were many causes, but one is always present. Zen Buddhism must fit the needs of society, to help them discover Zen. Zen is the source of morality, not ethics imposed by Zen Buddhism. Yamada Mumom was wrong with one thing. That is, he believed that it can be re-imported from US, not realizing that they exported a dead body in the first place. That's why we see a Roshi called masters master by some, Sasaki, revealing the rotten inside of Zen Buddhism. A structure used to abuse people. And this is becoming universal phenomena. Teaching dead words in golden covers, preaching ethics while being immoral. Morality is a natural consequence which cannot be imposed by rules or precepts. This is well known from all great religions. This is the teaching of truly great masters.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby yan kong » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:02 pm

Matylda wrote:
yan kong wrote:Ethics? I would say a lack of them or at least a disregard for them would be what killed it.



It is really heavy accusation I should say.. are you aware of what you are writting about? How did you come to point that ethics lacked or were disregarded?


You're right, it is a heavy accusation and I don't really know what the state of zen in China is. I suppose I was making a rather vague response to Oushi's comment against ethics and precepts.
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Re: Does Zen have ethics?

Postby dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:05 pm

I think the real question is "Does ethics have Zen?"
Think about it.
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