The Tsem Tulku thread.

Alfredo
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The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Alfredo » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:44 am

Last edited by DGA on Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Grigoris » Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:54 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby DGA » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:48 pm


JKhedrup
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:13 pm


Alfredo
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Alfredo » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:11 pm

I regard the protector issue as a distraction from the more pressing concern of whether Tsem is behaving as a cult leader. I suspected as much based on his the details of his own organization's literature, but these other accounts certainly reinforce the impression, and have the ring of authenticity. Are they unsubstantiated gossip? Well, in view of Tsem's history of suing his critics (actually he has his students do it), a desire for anonymity is quite understandable. I find them at least as solid as the numerous accounts PRAISING Tsem--which, you'll notice, Kechara tends to churn out en masse. Really, I've never met a lama more obsessed with self-promotion. They say his students have quotas to meet in terms of blog comments and social media activity, much like China's famous "fifty cent-ers," and many of the posts in this thread have that tenor. You might even say that Tsem's status as a lama is unsubstantiated, except in the tautalogical social sense that he has managed to attract followers.

If you insist on focusing on supernatural issues--as opposed, for example, to the allegation that he has installed "security" cameras all over Kechara for the purpose of spying on people, and gleaning little bits of information which he can then use to impress them with his supposed psychic abilities--then may I suggest, as a more fruitful line of discussion, the issue of his emphasis on protecting his followers from black magic? Or the supernatural threats which he assures them await anyone who abandons or opposes their guru (who, you'll notice, is assumed to be Tsem)? You're probably right about the Setrap thing, though.

The larger point which this raises is, how can anyone know from afar who is a lama, let alone a lama worthy of respect? Just because they look the part, or have a glowing website about themselves, is no guarantee of authenticity. Too often Western followers of Tibetan Buddhism automatically side with the presumed authorities of their religion over their critics (see Chungyam Trungpa), without stopping to consider whether (as in that Zen story about the rampaging elephant) the critics have a Buddha Nature which also deserves to be heeded. We might stop to ask whether we, the sort of audience represented by Dharma Wheel, are not part of the problem.
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michaelb
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby michaelb » Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:22 pm


JKhedrup
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:54 am


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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Grigoris » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:07 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:09 am

Well, they are posted on his own twitter page, just google twitter and tsem tulku.

And he speaks in the first person about there being no Wifi in his hotel room, etc.

It is him speaking, I don't think he would allow his students to impersonate him in that way.

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:13 am


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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Grigoris » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:13 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:18 am


Alfredo
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Alfredo » Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:59 am

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby DGA » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:20 pm

I find it unusual and disappointing, in the spirit of open discussion, that no one who has praised or endorsed Tsem in the past on this site, even in this thread, has attempted to rebut any of the criticisms made of him.

It's not unusual for one of Tsem's followers to open a thread at DW to announce how delightful a particular blog post or youtube video might be...

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby michaelb » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:26 pm

It's possible that word has come down from Tsem Tulku not to visit Dharmawheel anymore. A similar thing happened with the NKT. Previously Kelsang gyatso used to post and debate on internet forums. After he stopped his close students did it for him. Once another sex scandal was exposed on e-sangha he issued a decree that internet forums were bad and his students shouldn't visit them. Cult leaders don't like criticis or their students exposed to opposing views.

JKhedrup
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:43 pm

Setting all those matters aside, decide whether his twitter comments make you have more or less confidence in him as a teacher. That is all I will say on the matter, as those comments co e from him and require no assumptions.

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby DGA » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:10 pm

Tsem's actions as a teacher are worth considering too. For instance, whom has he invited to teach his own students? Who, among the living or deceased, has he asked his students to venerate? These are matters that are publicly available, and to my mind they fall under the category of "investigating the teacher."

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Grigoris » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:22 pm

Dear Ven Khedrup, I don't know if you were a member of e-sangha back when Marcos had logged into the site (as moderator) and his kid brother jumped onto the computer when Marcos was out and raised hell all over the forum?

If the twitter messages are from Tsem Tulku then I can definitely say that (for me) they do not elicit trust and faith in him. But then again, he is not my guru. But I cannot know for sure that they are his messages. Judging from the other nonsense some of his followers engage in, I would not put it past them to use Tsem Tulkus twitter account for their twisted ends. I am sure that tsem Tulku is not the only one to benefit financially from Khechara.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

JKhedrup
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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby JKhedrup » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:36 pm

Multiple times overmultiple days, and the blog as well as Twitter?

Anyways, i will try to stay off this topic. I recognize my aversion to the marketing makes further criticism on my part unwholesome.

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Re: The Tsem Tulku thread.

Postby Alfredo » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:33 pm

The "Inside the Company" blog has a contact e-mail for someone calling himself Alex. In view of the legal issues, Alex may resist being drawn into confirming that the site is about Kechara. However, if it were not about Kechara, surely Alex could say that. He has not (in his e-mails to me). Incidentally, I was directed to the site from another dissident, who confirmed its general accuracy (and added many more details).

As long as we're being skeptical, Tsem claims to be third in a lineage of Tsem Rinpoches. Other than his own website, how can we be sure that this lineage ever existed--that he didn't just make it up? (Help! Is there a Tibetologist in the house?)

He claims to have been initially recognized by Zong Rinpoche, who died soon afterwards (so we must take Tsem's word that this occurred). He also claims to have been "recognized and enthroned" by the Dalai Lama in 1991. Notice the photos:

http://v7.tsemtulku.com/biography/recog ... hronement/

Of course, the Dalai Lama has his photo taken with a lot of people (even that Japanese cult guy), and there is no indication here that Tsem is the center of attention. I am told that when Kechara applied to join the Vajrayana Buddhist Council of Malaysia (an umbrella group of Tibetan Buddhist societies), and was asked to provide documentation of his recognition by Ganden Shartze and the Dalai Lama, they refused. Perhaps they had the documents, but were offended. (Tsem and the FPMT groups, who were already on the council, apparently have a history of bad relations.)

When dealing with a suspected con artist, one should doubt everything the con artist says, for which the main source of information is the con artist.
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