Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:No it's saying when you reach 4th vision you can manifest anyway as needed.

Mine say ride the lion.
We're saying the same thing (except the bit about the lion, I personally prefer riding Cheetah, they go much faster).


Really you dont prefer the lion? You might want to take that back. Seated on a lion throne... Eh?
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:09 pm

oushi wrote:"As if there is "real" concrete existing reality" would be perfect.
Anyway, all depends on the attitude. The trip after which I gave it all up, was triggered by mix of weed with mushrooms. I went so deep, witch such an agile and insightful mind, that I knew it is far beyond capabilities of normal perception. No hallucinations, just a mind looking at reality through a great magnifying glass, cutting like a razor through every concept, or meaning. And I found nothing, everything empty, more and more subtle, harder to grasp in words. There is nothing to look after, and even if there is, I will not be capable of finding it, ever. Although It was taught by great masters, It seems that I had to see it for myself. Were those plants a poison or a cure?
Is your mind a poison or a cure?
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:10 pm

Terrence McKenna once said, "Either I'm really onto something with psychedelics, or I'm completely delusional."

OK, great point. How do you decide which it is Terrence? :thinking:
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:11 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:"As if there is "real" concrete existing reality" would be perfect.
Anyway, all depends on the attitude. The trip after which I gave it all up, was triggered by mix of weed with mushrooms. I went so deep, witch such an agile and insightful mind, that I knew it is far beyond capabilities of normal perception. No hallucinations, just a mind looking at reality through a great magnifying glass, cutting like a razor through every concept, or meaning. And I found nothing, everything empty, more and more subtle, harder to grasp in words. There is nothing to look after, and even if there is, I will not be capable of finding it, ever. Although It was taught by great masters, It seems that I had to see it for myself. Were those plants a poison or a cure?
Is your mind a poison or a cure?

Both, until neither.

smcj wrote:Terrence McKenna once said, "Either I'm really onto something with psychedelics, or I'm completely delusional."

OK, great point. How do you decide which it is Terrence? :thinking:

It is enough to listen to his talks.
For example:

Or more related with the subject:
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:14 pm

smcj wrote:Terrence McKenna once said, "Either I'm really onto something with psychedelics, or I'm completely delusional."

OK, great point. How do you decide which it is Terrence? :thinking:


The problem comes from loving visions and acting like they are a world. McKenna didnt get bardo even though he used that word a lot. If he did he could have avoided a mushroom shaped brain tumor. Maybe.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:35 pm

Ok Greg. I remembered. My good friend is the widow of a Cherokee medicine man. I met with her over some time and she encouraged me. And connected me with her Hopi fiends. From time to time I would go to Hopi land. As a kid I went with the Klamath, Modocs and Athabaskans. There is the idea of big sky mind. Very similar stuff to Dzogchen. Really.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:12 pm

smcj wrote:Terrence McKenna once said, "Either I'm really onto something with psychedelics, or I'm completely delusional."

OK, great point. How do you decide which it is Terrence? :thinking:

It is enough to listen to his talks.
For example:

This is the first, most obvious level of "waking up" that the experience gives people. Leary's version of it was "Turn on, tune in, drop out." It is also why monks were admonished to live outside of towns, so that they wouldn't be caught up in the mundane dramas of day to day life. However as an insight it is framed in the negative; what not to get caught up in. The hippie culture was predicated on it. But hippies never really found a better direction, except to make everything playtime. That didn't work, and we got yuppies, etc.

But as I've mentioned before in this thread, McKenna wrote several books. In one, the title of which I think is "True Hallucinations", he goes on about being in the Amazon jungle and taking DMT. His insight on that occasion was that if he hummed a certain note, that would cancel out the energy waves around him and the temperature would fall to absolute zero. Then spontaneously a cosmic goo would appear and have the property of granting all wishes. There's a books on tape version of this where McKenna does his own reading, and he hums the note. He's 100% invested in this idea. So, as he himself said, either he was really onto something, or he was completely delusional. What would be the test? Did the cosmic goo appear, did all his wishes become granted?

That was the trouble with McKenna. He wanted his psychedelic visions to be authentic, to be valid. They weren't, as I think is obvious in the example just given. My position is that the importance to the experience is that it can completely displace the sober experience, which means that the sober experience is not absolute, not 100% authentic. It is a failure of imagination to say that the psychedelia experience is more authentic. Truly authentic experience would have to be unchangeable, common to both the sober and psychedelic experience. So that starts the search.

The Dharma teachings on the mind's clarity, luminosity, and unimpeded nature seem to fit the bill, not validating the psychedelic experience, but of what it is about the mind that isn't effected by psychedelics. Dharma is about the nature of mind, not the contents of mind. Evidently there are scriptures that say the usefulness of psychoactive substances is to demonstrate the malleablility of the mind. This is my interpretation of that idea. The incident where Ram Dass gave his guru acid being a demonstration of that understanding.
Last edited by smcj on Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:23 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:Ok Greg. I remembered. My good friend is the widow of a Cherokee medicine man. I met with her over some time and she encouraged me. And connected me with her Hopi fiends. From time to time I would go to Hopi land. As a kid I went with the Klamath, Modocs and Athabaskans.
Cool!
There is the idea of big sky mind. Very similar stuff to Dzogchen. Really.
I don't know enough to compare, but I'll take you on your word.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:30 pm

That was the trouble with McKenna. He wanted his psychedelic visions to be authentic, to be valid. They weren't, as I think is obvious in the example just given.

It isn't. When the mind is transformed, wanting does not remain unaffected. I often experiences states which I call "wish fulfilling gems", but those do no change material reality, but fulfill all the minds desires.

He was free to share everything about his experience without thinking twice about how will it be received. I don't think he found absolute liberation, but he was a great projection of the mind, revealing its wast and peculiar forms. When we listen to his words, it's obvious he is not an ordinary person. Very wise and intelligent, great speaker on the subject of nature and human. Paradigm breaker. True healer of social sickness. I treat things like cosmic goo as a nice, colorful add to his story. I know that mind is capable of doing things, things that does not really matter anyway. So, there is no need for a any test. What Terrence was saying through his work was: Wake up! There is more, those boundaries are fake!
And he was right.

It is a failure of imagination to say that the psychedelia experience is more authentic. Truly authentic experience would have to be unchangeable, common to both the sober and psychedelic experience. So that starts the search.

Good one... And what stops the search? Maybe knowing that no experience is unchangeable, that there is no fixed reality. Give it a thought. It isn't called liberation by accident.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:46 pm

It is a failure of imagination to say that the psychedelic experience is more authentic. Truly authentic experience would have to be unchangeable, common to both the sober and psychedelic experience. So that starts the search.

Good one... And what stops the search? Maybe knowing that no experience is unchangeable, that there is no fixed reality.

What stops the search? Experiencing the mind's unchangeable authentic nature without obscurations. That's the end of the road--or perhaps I should say path.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:59 pm

smcj wrote:
It is a failure of imagination to say that the psychedelic experience is more authentic. Truly authentic experience would have to be unchangeable, common to both the sober and psychedelic experience. So that starts the search.

Good one... And what stops the search? Maybe knowing that no experience is unchangeable, that there is no fixed reality.

What stops the search? Experiencing the mind's unchangeable authentic nature without obscurations. That's the end of the road--or perhaps I should say path.

Stopping the search reveals it, not the other way around.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:13 pm

What stops the search? Experiencing the mind's unchangeable authentic nature without obscurations. That's the end of the road--or perhaps I should say path.

Stopping the search reveals it, not the other way around.

That depends on your tradition and practice. Complacency and enlightenment are not the same thing. Complacency is ignorant awareness reducing the Teachings of great awareness down into its own ignorant paradigm.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:20 pm

smcj wrote:
What stops the search? Experiencing the mind's unchangeable authentic nature without obscurations. That's the end of the road--or perhaps I should say path.

Stopping the search reveals it, not the other way around.

That depends on your tradition and practice. Complacency and enlightenment are not the same thing. Complacency is ignorant awareness reducing the Teachings of great awareness down into its own ignorant paradigm.

Complacency comes from finding what you are searching for, not from stopping the search. Drugs, for example, can make you self-satisfied. I don't know your practice, but pretty much all practices and up in no search and it is quite reasonable.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby flavio81 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:Ok Greg. I remembered. My good friend is the widow of a Cherokee medicine man. I met with her over some time and she encouraged me. And connected me with her Hopi fiends. From time to time I would go to Hopi land. As a kid I went with the Klamath, Modocs and Athabaskans.
Cool!
There is the idea of big sky mind. Very similar stuff to Dzogchen. Really.
I don't know enough to compare, but I'll take you on your word.


It's not the first time that i've seen someone mentioned that some american indian traditions have similarities with Dzogchen. I think Chogyal Namkhai Norbu mentioned something similar once.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:00 pm

That depends on your tradition and practice. Complacency and enlightenment are not the same thing. Complacency is ignorant awareness reducing the Teachings of great awareness down into its own ignorant paradigm.

Complacency comes from finding what you are searching for, not from stopping the search. Drugs, for example, can make you self-satisfied. I don't know your practice, but pretty much all practices and up in no search and it is quite reasonable.

Once I find my keys, I stop looking. The classical Teaching says that once you arrive at the other shore, get out of the boat. The story of Asanga comes to mind:

Asanga meditated for 12 years on Maitreya. Finally Maitreya appeared to him. Asanga asked, "Where have you been all this time?" To which Maitreya replied, "I've been here the whole time, but your obscurations wouldn't allow you to see me."

Here Maitreya is a metaphor for Asanga's enlightenment. Enlightenment, once achieved, is retroactive. But it took Asanga 12 years of work to see it.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:19 pm

Maitreya wasn't found by Asanga, he appeared. Although he was there all the time, Asangas vision was obscured... by searching. Searching implies that you are missing something, so you release the mind like a tracking dog. To start searching, mind moves its focus away from its source, which is unchangeable authentic nature without obscurations.
And this make sense.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:29 pm

oushi wrote:Maitreya wasn't found by Asanga, he appeared. Although he was there all the time, Asangas vision was obscured... by searching.

If searching was the problem, Maitreya would have appeared before Asanga started his practice!

Actually there's more to the story. It starts with Asanga doing years of practice with no result, so he gives up. But then he sees a bird that has nested in a hole in a boulder. The bird flies in and out so often that it's wings have worn the edges of the boulder smooth. Asanga is inspired by the birds diligence to return to practice. So the story in its entirety is a teaching in not giving up.

But there are authentic Teachings along the lines you suggest. There is very little unanimous consensus in Dharma.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:10 am

smcj wrote:
oushi wrote:Maitreya wasn't found by Asanga, he appeared. Although he was there all the time, Asangas vision was obscured... by searching.

If searching was the problem, Maitreya would have appeared before Asanga started his practice!

We humans are in constant search after something. Practice should not add to this confusion. But we know that there are different stages, and different goal. Not every practice is directly aiming for liberation. Not every practice is based on letting go.
Maybe psychedelics can help one get fed up with attainments, which will make him stop, or at least slow down?
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:06 pm

We humans are in constant search after something. Practice should not add to this confusion. But we know that there are different stages, and different goal. Not every practice is directly aiming for liberation. Not every practice is based on letting go.
Maybe psychedelics can help one get fed up with attainments, which will make him stop, or at least slow down?

Having met men with attainments, I see no reason to reject that path.

"Not searching", in all its various forms, is a different type of path. They kind of end up at the same place. Generally the path with attainments allows one to better benefit others.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:10 am

The most radical version I know of the 'It's already here' approach is Huang Po's statement, 'There is no difference between the unenlightened and the enlightened'.
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