Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:20 pm

M.G. wrote:I've talked to people who have told me they took psychedelics and had fun, or had visions, or felt threatened, or gained some sort of insight. I've never had anyone tell me "I took psychedelics and since then I've been less self-grasping."

Now u have
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:36 pm

I will share one bit. Some folks will run to it and some from it so both r conditioned and wrong. If you have transmission of Yangti you can learn yourself to use psychedelics to induce bardo visions. If you have DI at least you have the lever to avoid the existence idea while riding the bleeding edge of a swoon. This is the base jumping of dharma. And you have to be really objective and precise with dosages so as to keep just this side of unconscious dream. Think of it as drug induced dream yoga. Polite society and any conventional life is over for this one. All plants must be treated as gurus and used in natural preparation. No lab chems. I have used salvia, psilocybin and marijuana this way. I noticed not only how malleable experience is but how "realmy". So I'm realmless.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:40 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:

The next paragraph from the same source (DJKR's "Longchen Nyingtik Practice Manual"):
Our karma is incredible. Even your asking this question, this alone must be your great merit. In a past life, let's say you were born in a very rigid puritanical family, or in some similar kind of situation to that. Then one day, perhaps after reading a book or something, somehow you give rise to this feeling, "I would like to experience the effects of a drug." Now as much as this is the start of your samsaric life, such a mentality suddenly popping into your head can also be due to your merit. Then you pursued it - you went through all this struggle of breaking through all these concepts of what is proper, what is pure, and what is the right thing to do. Then that experience opened up your mind a little bit further, until you eventually became not so interested in the drug anymore. Perhaps you become more focused on the practice, and in the meditation. Thus, it can be a manifestation of your inner guru. I can confidently tell you that. Definitely.

:good:
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:51 pm

Vasana wrote:The reason i mentioned Ayawaska and a perception of the Bardo/ astral plane is because it is known to dissolve our normal barriers of ordinary perception .Maybe i am using too many syncretic terms interchangeably without elaborating enough but i think there's a lot to be learnt from the knowledge and connection to the world ,other beings and transcendental states that ayawaska can act as a catylyst for.

I believe that the Ayawaska vine it's self is connected to a disembodied form of sentient and mostly compassionate intelligence, capable of communicating and teaching those who arrive humbly to learn from it.

Maybe this intelligence is a manifestation or emanation of something/someone else :shrug:

Rather than just having dream like visions or just hallucinating figures, 'actual' apparitions can appear of various kinds of spirits,beings and various forms of extra sensory perception occur. It's not just an overlay of hallucinations like many would assume. In some way, it actually gives you extra sensory perceptions both of the internal psyche as well your physical enviroment, which tends to look a lot more/less than physical while partaking in ceremony ( Just stating what i have observed, not whether or not such abilities/Siddhis are cause for attachment etc)

For me personally, the experience along with many other astral experiences provided a glimpse of parts/realms/states of Samsara that usually remain out of sight. This is why i have personally found them useful in experiencing a first hand look at what would or could probably take decades of meditation to experience without if that was a goal.

Maybe Bardo is a term i should use less until i'm 'qualified' to incorporate that terminology, but i would definitely propose that there are links between the other realms of Samsara and the Varying levels existant on the Astral plane ( something which may sound like a wishy-washy new-age concept, but is actually verifiable by anyone).

Psychedelics and Ayawaska can provide glimpses of many things. I think we must all be in agreement there by now. As to whether or not these glimpses are beneficial will obviously vary from person to person along with their predispositions,karmic traces and intent.

They're not for everyone , we know that. But for me, i know that in the future, when i part take in a ceremony again, i will learn things of value and benefit to myself and ultimately other beings.


I reccomend googling "pablo amaringo pdf" for a pdf with paintings and explanations from an Ayawaska Shaman.

Image

Image

Image

Arbitrary hallucinated figures or regular sentient acquaintances?

http://www.ayahuascacommunity.com/visionary-art/


Le horror vacui nes pas
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:54 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:From the plants. But all shaman say this.
Okay, so you got the teaching from a shaman. May I ask from which tradition?

Well I got that bit from Togal instructions.
Really? Can you quote the bit or give us the section so we can read it too?
I'm assuming there r sutras that say that.
I severely doubt it. Like really severely doubt it. I would be interested in being proved wrong though. But I doubt it.
The plants are direct links.
Impossible. Unless you are saying the plant talks to you before you ingest it. Somebody has to say to you: "This is the plant. It has to be ingested like this. It has to be prepared this way. You need this much of it. Etc..." But even then the plant won't be talking, your mind will be talking. All perception is done by mind.
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:56 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I thought it was funny, maybe you are just being too serious? Nothing a couple of tokes on a joint won't fix! :smile:


The emo bubbles are the Bardos revving up to reveal themselves. Gamj is sattvic so it tends to bring out happy visions. Not always. Depends on karma.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:01 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Somebody has to say to you: "This is the plant. It has to be ingested like this. It has to be prepared this way. You need this much of it. Etc..." But even then the plant won't be talking, your mind will be talking. All perception is done by mind.

I will just follow the logical consequence here. If all perception is done by mind, then not only is the mind talking, but there in no "somebody" and no plant, just the mind. Mind is the teacher, always.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:09 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:I thought it was funny, maybe you are just being too serious? Nothing a couple of tokes on a joint won't fix! :smile:


The emo bubbles are the Bardos revving up to reveal themselves. Gamj is sattvic so it tends to bring out happy visions. Not always. Depends on karma.
Everything depends on karma. One's response to eating stir fried bean sprouts depends on karma too. So what category of talking plant does that place them in? :shrug:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:17 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:From the plants. But all shaman say this.
Okay, so you got the teaching from a shaman. May I ask from which tradition?

Well I got that bit from Togal instructions.
Really? Can you quote the bit or give us the section so we can read it too?
I'm assuming there r sutras that say that.
I severely doubt it. Like really severely doubt it. I would be interested in being proved wrong though. But I doubt it.
The plants are direct links.
Impossible. Unless you are saying the plant talks to you before you ingest it. Somebody has to say to you: "This is the plant. It has to be ingested like this. It has to be prepared this way. You need this much of it. Etc..." But even then the plant won't be talking, your mind will be talking. All perception is done by mind.


You are reading between the lines when I'm being direct. The shaman tradition is one big old deal.

All right. Getting books out. You are so cocksure. Laugh.

P.47 Meditation on the clear light LTN.

"The emanation of the Nirmanakaya means that he appears not always as a beautiful being but as what is needed by beings. For example, if there are people who need to cross a big river because they have to escape from the suffering of being hunted but they cannot find a bridge, the Buddha may emanate in the form of a bridge. If others are starving he may emanate as a huge fish. Big like a mountain. He manifests according to their needs."

Yeah the plants talk to me. They live in me. I am their fingernails.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:20 pm

oushi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Somebody has to say to you: "This is the plant. It has to be ingested like this. It has to be prepared this way. You need this much of it. Etc..." But even then the plant won't be talking, your mind will be talking. All perception is done by mind.

I will just follow the logical consequence here. If all perception is done by mind, then not only is the mind talking, but there in no "somebody" and no plant, just the mind. Mind is the teacher, always.
:twothumbsup: At the relative level, yes. To me it is quite clear that all these experiences are at the relative level. Sure, the ego is made more malleable during the experience, but really all that seems to be happening is a distortion of perception or (at best) a different way of conceptualising perception. Like others have said, this may be of some value in order to overcome grasping to the idea of a concretely existing reality, but it can also be reified so that one just chases after the new experience, as if that is the "real" concretely existing reality.

Which leads us back to the main point: all experiences (psychedelic or not) can be liberatory or entrapping depending on how one views (ie conceptualises) them.

ALL EXPERIENCES.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:22 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:I thought it was funny, maybe you are just being too serious? Nothing a couple of tokes on a joint won't fix! :smile:


The emo bubbles are the Bardos revving up to reveal themselves. Gamj is sattvic so it tends to bring out happy visions. Not always. Depends on karma.
Everything depends on karma. One's response to eating stir fried bean sprouts depends on karma too. So what category of talking plant does that place them in? :shrug:


A big fart.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:23 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Somebody has to say to you: "This is the plant. It has to be ingested like this. It has to be prepared this way. You need this much of it. Etc..." But even then the plant won't be talking, your mind will be talking. All perception is done by mind.

I will just follow the logical consequence here. If all perception is done by mind, then not only is the mind talking, but there in no "somebody" and no plant, just the mind. Mind is the teacher, always.
:twothumbsup: At the relative level, yes. To me it is quite clear that all these experiences are at the relative level. Sure, the ego is made more malleable during the experience, but really all that seems to be happening is a distortion of perception or (at best) a different way of conceptualising perception. Like others have said, this may be of some value in order to overcome grasping to the idea of a concretely existing reality, but it can also be reified so that one just chases after the new experience, as if that is the "real" concretely existing reality.

Which leads us back to the main point: all experiences (psychedelic or not) can be liberatory or entrapping depending on how one views (ie conceptualises) them.

ALL EXPERIENCES.


Your non grasping is big grasping if you ask me. Judging by you tone of sheer blatant disrespectful mockery. There's a big demon in you.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:26 pm

Anyway there are fringy ways to play it like meditation in hurricane force winds on a cliff for example. Different strokes.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:32 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:You are reading between the lines when I'm being direct.
Not at all. Your responses are merely eliciting new questions, probably because they are incomplete.
P.47 Meditation on the clear light LTN.

"The emanation of the Nirmanakaya means that he appears not always as a beautiful being but as what is needed by beings. For example, if there are people who need to cross a big river because they have to escape from the suffering of being hunted but they cannot find a bridge, the Buddha may emanate in the form of a bridge. If others are starving he may emanate as a huge fish. Big like a mountain. He manifests according to their needs."
Okay, cool, no problem with that at all. All forms are Nirmanakaya aspects of the Dharmakaya. So this really says nothing about the specific form (the plant) being a Nirmanakaya form and other forms not being a Nirmanakaya. What this is saying is that all perceived forms should be viewed as the emanation body of enlightened awareness. It is saying that all forms are equally significant and should be treated as Nirmanakaya.
Yeah the plants talk to me. They live in me. I am their fingernails.
Plants live in me too. They live under my toenails and on the soles of my feet. They talk to me. They say: "Scratch me now you bastard!" :smile:
Last edited by Sherab Dorje on Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:34 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:A big fart.
Yes , well, at least it's loud and clear what the bean sprouts are saying! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:41 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:You are reading between the lines when I'm being direct.
Not at all. Your responses are merely eliciting new questions, probably because they are incomplete.
P.47 Meditation on the clear light LTN.

"The emanation of the Nirmanakaya means that he appears not always as a beautiful being but as what is needed by beings. For example, if there are people who need to cross a big river because they have to escape from the suffering of being hunted but they cannot find a bridge, the Buddha may emanate in the form of a bridge. If others are starving he may emanate as a huge fish. Big like a mountain. He manifests according to their needs."
Okay, cool, no prblem with that at all. All forms are Nirmanakaya aspects of the Dharmakaya. So this really says nothing about the specific form (the plant) being a Nirmanakaya form and other forms not being a Nirmanakaya. What this is saying is that all perceived forms should be viewed as the emanation body of enlightened awareness. It is saying that all forms are equally significant and should be treated as Nirmanakaya.
Yeah the plants talk to me. They live in me. I am their fingernails.
Plants live in me too. They live under my toenails and on the soles of my feet. They talk to me. They say: "Scratch me now you bastard!" :smile:


No it's saying when you reach 4th vision you can manifest anyway as needed.

Mine say ride the lion.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:42 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:Your non grasping is big grasping if you ask me. Judging by you tone of sheer blatant disrespectful mockery. There's a big demon in you.
Noooo... that's just the beans talking! :tongue:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:43 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:Your non grasping is big grasping if you ask me. Judging by you tone of sheer blatant disrespectful mockery. There's a big demon in you.
Noooo... that's just the beans talking! :tongue:

Lol. Your diet is getting to exiting.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:44 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:No it's saying when you reach 4th vision you can manifest anyway as needed.

Mine say ride the lion.
We're saying the same thing (except the bit about the lion, I personally prefer riding Cheetah, they go much faster).
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:53 pm

gregkavarnos wrote: Like others have said, this may be of some value in order to overcome grasping to the idea of a concretely existing reality, but it can also be reified so that one just chases after the new experience, as if that is the "real" concretely existing reality.

"As if there is "real" concrete existing reality" would be perfect.
Anyway, all depends on the attitude. The trip after which I gave it all up, was triggered by mix of weed with mushrooms. I went so deep, witch such an agile and insightful mind, that I knew it is far beyond capabilities of normal perception. No hallucinations, just a mind looking at reality through a great magnifying glass, cutting like a razor through every concept, or meaning. And I found nothing, everything empty, more and more subtle, harder to grasp in words. There is nothing to look after, and even if there is, I will not be capable of finding it, ever. Although It was taught by great masters, It seems that I had to see it for myself. Were those plants a poison or a cure?
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