Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Luke » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:04 pm

Individual wrote:I find some of this very interesting and thought-provoking, but some of it gravely mistaken.

That's fine, Individual. No one is twisting your arm to believe it. If the Bardo Thodol doesn't help your Buddhist practice, then move on.

Individual wrote:The notion of a mind-made body is appealing to me, but the idea of it having the property of locality is not.

Yes, we would all like to experience the clear light nature of mind which is vast like space and become enlightened and achieve the three kayas, but due to our ignorance, attachment, and past tendencies, we keep clinging to our concepts of bodies.

Individual wrote: In other words, if materialism is such a bad thing, why must these things be explained in materialistic terms, as a kind of physical spirit which leaves the body? Why not let it remain as spiritual writing, instead of making it a pseudoscience?

The Book of the Dead was written as a guidebook from the subjective point of view of what the dying person experiences. For all the background theory, perhaps another source might be better.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Individual » Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:36 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:this self invented reality

Reality is self-invented?

You both are right. If this isn't useful to me, I'll simply move on.

I apologize for wasting your time. :bow:
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby kirtu » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:27 am

The Bardo Thodol is a method that can be used to guide people to Buddhahood or to a positive rebirth. It's a guidebook to lead a person's mind to Buddhahood or at lest a better rebirth. As such there are numerous opportunities during the first few days of the recent separation of a person's mind and body to do so.

The practice of the Bardo Thodol is intended for a good practitioner who nonetheless might become frightened or forget practice after they died and did not attain liberation at or right after death. For most people the after death experience of the mind will just be a flash and then mostly an apparent unconsciousness or just a restless kind of dream state until they are reborn.

People who experience the visions outlined in the Bardo Thodol have already cleared quite a few obstacles but aren't liberated and can still be reborn in bad places. Basically if you have lucid sorts of dreams then your might see those visions.

But the mind's intelligence is greatly enhanced after death and also experiences clairvoyance so there is the possibility for a person to respond spiritually even if they aren't Buddhist practitioners esp. if these beings have been close to the person practicing for them. If they do respond positively then they accumulate merit.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:08 am

Long answer short, and I didn't read all the posts before writing this so I might be repeating:

The Bardo Thodol is for tantric practitioners of middling skill and training, it is a terma and frankly I don't think you people, most of you who probably don't even hold Bodhisattva vows, should even touch it, much less discuss this subject that is way beyond your level of education.

The majority of you people I expect are of the skill and education of the lowest level of phowas, forms of kriya where you rely on the vows of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to help you and hold firmly to their image with great reverence.

You might feel insulted, I feel insulted too reading over this thread.

If you want a practice that functions as phowa that is appropriate to everyone here, then discuss the King of Prayers, a section of the Avatamsaka Sutta.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Josef » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:50 pm

spiritnoname wrote:Long answer short, and I didn't read all the posts before writing this so I might be repeating:

The Bardo Thodol is for tantric practitioners of middling skill and training, it is a terma and frankly I don't think you people, most of you who probably don't even hold Bodhisattva vows, should even touch it, much less discuss this subject that is way beyond your level of education.

The majority of you people I expect are of the skill and education of the lowest level of phowas, forms of kriya where you rely on the vows of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to help you and hold firmly to their image with great reverence.

You might feel insulted, I feel insulted too reading over this thread.

If you want a practice that functions as phowa that is appropriate to everyone here, then discuss the King of Prayers, a section of the Avatamsaka Sutta.


There are at least 3 people who have commented in this thread that I have no doubt are 100% qualified to discuss, study, and practice the teachings contained in the Bardo Thodol.
Your assuming a lot about the practitioners in this thread and vastly underestimating their capacity and knowledge.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:56 pm

Nangwa,
I did not read all the posts before mine, but considering the subject, if they were discussing it in any great detail with people who do not hold vows I have no problem hurling more criticism. This particular text of Padmasambhava's has been warped to some very disgusting things as a result of people who are unqualified, have no respect for the training, or the integrity to learn what it means instead of making things up.

Rather than see this nonsense perpetuate itself in America I'd rather be harsh and mean and make people feel bad when they talk about it until it goes away from coffee table discussions. That way when people are ready to learn about it their heads won't be already full of nonsense and they'll understand and make use of the text, actually benefiting from it.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Josef » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:54 pm

spiritnoname wrote:Nangwa,
I did not read all the posts before mine, but considering the subject, if they were discussing it in any great detail with people who do not hold vows I have no problem hurling more criticism. This particular text of Padmasambhava's has been warped to some very disgusting things as a result of people who are unqualified, have no respect for the training, or the integrity to learn what it means instead of making things up.

Rather than see this nonsense perpetuate itself in America I'd rather be harsh and mean and make people feel bad when they talk about it until it goes away from coffee table discussions. That way when people are ready to learn about it their heads won't be already full of nonsense and they'll understand and make use of the text, actually benefiting from it.

Its not about making people feel bad. Its about making assumptions about other practitioners.
You probably should have read the thread before your initial post.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:57 pm

Nangwa, I don't think this text should be discussed here. I think this text is something that you should receive from a person who knows it in and out and can explain it clearly so that it is completely understood. This text requires a lot of knowledge before hand regarding tantra and that you are at least of middling proficiency to make use of it when the time comes.

This text is for practitioners and if I had control of who this text was available to I would definitely not give it to non-practitioners who cannot make sense of it much less use of it.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Luke » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:50 pm

spiritnoname wrote:Nangwa, I don't think this text should be discussed here. I think this text is something that you should receive from a person who knows it in and out and can explain it clearly so that it is completely understood. This text requires a lot of knowledge before hand regarding tantra and that you are at least of middling proficiency to make use of it when the time comes.

This text is for practitioners and if I had control of who this text was available to I would definitely not give it to non-practitioners who cannot make sense of it much less use of it.


I can relate to your feelings, Spiritnoname. I also feel that any Dharma text--and especially one by Guru Rinpoche!--should be treated with great reverence, but I also value open debates and good questions.

Restricting the availabity of many Vajrayana texts would be the natural, cautious thing to do. However, His Holiness the Dalai Lama doesn't feel this way because he wrote an introduction for the Bardo Thodol, and I'm sure that he knew that many ordinary people without much in the way of Buddhist qualifications were going to read it. His Holiness wrote in his introduction the following: "I hope that the profound insights contained in this work will be a source of inspiration and support to many interested people around the world."
http://www.amazon.com/Tibetan-Book-Dead ... 756&sr=8-2

And I value the Dalai Lama's opinion more than I value the fears of you or me.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:09 pm

When a text is published as much as Bardol Thodol has been, even if it is a secret text for people who have vows, lamas throw up their hands, nothing they can do about it, maybe they'll even do damage control by writing something about it.

You try getting another text of similar status from him though, try asking him about, you will get diverted to something else unless you have vows.

Most HYT is unknown to the world, even the relavant tantra for the Bardo Thodol is almost completely unknown to Westerners without vows. Do any of you here even know about the Mahayoga of the Bardo Thodol? No? See that's why I object to this so much. No vows, rambling on about what you don't know instead of what you do, why is this thread not deleted?
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Heruka » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:22 pm

spiritnoname wrote:why I object to this so much. No vows, rambling on about what you don't know instead of what you do, why is this thread not deleted?



since when did vows become a source of pride?

:shrug:
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:27 pm

Heruka, it is even in Kriya(the lowest level of tantra) vows not to discuss secret mantra with people who do not hold the proper vows. If people are talking about this subject with people who do not hold vows they are walking on dangerous ground in terms of their vows and therefore samaya.

So I say people here are not qualified, and they are not.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:29 pm

I actually received a letter from the staff here about my saying that in this thread,

"Dear Spiritnoname,

Your use of speech in the thread referenced in the subject title is presumptuous. We have no way of knowing what level of skill posters at this forum are functioning at.

Please report concerns about subject matter to staff in the future. This is a formal warning.

Best,
Laura
"
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby spiritnoname » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:30 pm

Obviously the staff are not tantrikka, what they are doing trying to moderate discussions of tantra I have no idea.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Mr. G » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:40 pm

spiritnoname wrote:Obviously the staff are not tantrikka, what they are doing trying to moderate discussions of tantra I have no idea.


You've been placed on a temporary 7 day ban for not following the boards TOS. If I could ban you for being oblivious in judging other members level of knowledge or realization, I'd do so as well. I've also issued a 2nd Warning.

Mind your own samayas, not others.
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
    - Vasubandhu
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Josef » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:41 pm

spiritnoname wrote:Do any of you here even know about the Mahayoga of the Bardo Thodol?


Yes, and I'm not the only one who has contributed to this thread.
Again, you are making some pretty strong assumptions about other practitioners on this forum and in general.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Heruka » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:42 pm

spiritnoname wrote: So I say people here are not qualified, and they are not.


people who dont know, cannot say, those who do know, will maintain self restraint in occurdence with their own practice and commitments, in other words bardo thodol is for all, it contains everything from sutra to atiyoga and all things in between, all can use, it is not exclusive texts only for initiates, this certainly goes against the spirit of enlightenment would you not agree?

one can even never have taken refuge and at time of death even through recollection or hearing of the texts can benefit from its essence.

I find your taliban style orthodox learnt attitude, interesting to say the least.
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Tara » Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:07 pm

Thanks Ngawang and mr. gordo for taking action.


Best wishes,

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Maybe you collect a lot of important writings,
Major texts, personal instructions, private notes, whatever.
If you haven’t practiced, books won’t help you when you die.
Look at the mind – that’s my sincere advice.

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from Longchenpa's 30 Pieces of Sincere Advice

Mors certa — hora incerta
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby Luke » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:49 am

spiritnoname wrote:Obviously the staff are not tantrikka, what they are doing trying to moderate discussions of tantra I have no idea.

*sigh* I sense another "Westerner Representative of Buddhism" here...
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Re: Of what use is the Bardo Thodol?

Postby muni » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Aversion-frustration. Turning Mahayana-Vajrayana in absurdities.
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