Psychedelics

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:02 pm

:lol:
Probably they did to little, and because he was able to resist it, he panicked... :o
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:05 pm

It's reasonably obvious that pot doesn't do anything special for people, pot is big among violent sectors of society, slacker cultures, as well as intellectuals and spiritual seekers. I don't think it's bad, and it's much less harmful than alcohol..but it's just a drug, it doesn't do anything special.

In fact, if pot was so great we'd already know it..there are plenty of places in the US where a good portion of the populace smokes, and two places now (I live in one) where it's legal.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:10 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's reasonably obvious that pot doesn't do anything special for people, pot is big among violent sectors of society, slacker cultures, as well as intellectuals and spiritual seekers. I don't think it's bad, and it's much less harmful than alcohol..but it's just a drug, it doesn't do anything special.

Violent sectors of society members just packed their toys and are heading Syria, because another violent sector members used a chemical weapon on civilians. I believe none of them was stoned.
In fact, if pot was so great we'd already know it..

Guess what, we already know it. Some just have to wait for a TV commercial to believe it.


And when we are at comedy:

Most of you probably seen that, but anyway... :)
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:It's reasonably obvious that pot doesn't do anything special for people, pot is big among violent sectors of society, slacker cultures, as well as intellectuals and spiritual seekers. I don't think it's bad, and it's much less harmful than alcohol..but it's just a drug, it doesn't do anything special.

Exactly. There seem to be a lot of loopholes presented in this thread by the pro-pot guys about using marijuana incorrectly. It seems they want to suggest that if everyone would just use it properly, they'd all benefit and society wouldn't be as bad. Legalizing weed is going to accomplish all that? Amazing! Well, I guess the majority of pot users are doing it wrong because at this point, most people try marijuana at some point in their lives and it is extremely easy to purchase, legal or not. Kids can get it easier than alcohol. The majority of pot-smokers I have ever encountered are just as bad as non-users or worse, really. Legalizing weed really isn't going to change much of anything. Pot is legal in Jamaica and that place has been pretty violent for a while now. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/world ... d=all&_r=0

And here's a spiritual toker smoking pot on his meditation rock:

:rolling:
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:55 pm

I feel the effect of the drug is basically neutral. Maybe a little mellower, maybe a little less inclined to competitive behavior, but then we see for plenty that is not so.

I spent years perma-stoned, I really don't get what anyone gets from it terms of spiritual stuff. My favorite part of Pot was that it made sex so intense, even if ya didn't like your partner that much. I also remember things like getting really stoned, doing a drawing of my friend that I thought was the most incredible piece of artwork i'd ever made. Then I woke up the next day (before loading up another bowl), took a look at the drawing, and it looked like a really bad cartoon drawing of Don King.

The few times I tried meditation stoned I ended up sleeping..contemplation is even worse because you imagine you've had all these grand insights, but once it wears off you realize they are either 1) just nonsense, or 2) completely banal.
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is not born in the hearts of disciples in whom the moisture of attachment has dried up. It grows instead in the hearts of ordinary sentient beings who possess in full the fetters of bondage." -Se Chilbu Choki Gyaltsen
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Son of Buddha » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:49 pm

Drugs have there purpose in society.......... that being if they are medically needed and serve an actual medical purpose.

personally I've have seen drugs destroy more peoples lives than fix them......and if you want to be spiritual then go be spiritual....if you NEED drugs to "feel" spiritual then maybe there are other underlying problems you may need to deal with.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Sherab Dorje » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:52 pm

oushi wrote:Violent sectors of society members just packed their toys and are heading Syria, because another violent sector members used a chemical weapon on civilians. I believe none of them was stoned.
You'd be very surprised.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby RikudouSennin » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:03 pm

if u want to do psychedelic
and in no way im suggesting it or advising you to do so.

with that said...Mescaline....follow that white rabbit....

is it buddhist.. :shrug:
what is buddhist? what are we aiming for? whats a psychedelic?

form your own opinion

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Re: Psychedelics

Postby wisdom » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:20 pm

Basically it seems the consensus is that everyone who used drugs and psychedelics at some point realized it was hindering their progress and so stopped using them. So far we all agree that drugs of many sorts can be of limited benefit, but not ultimate benefit since they cannot in themselves lead to realization.

Pot has the benefit of loosening the mind, relaxing the mind, and allowing new concepts and creative ideas to form. It has the side effect of placing perhaps undo importance on those concepts and ideas, and the additional danger of simply becoming a pothead. In my own experience, the most fruitful points of smoking pot has been when I haven't done it in a long time. After a few days of doing it, that effect wears off, and I find myself eating Nachos and playing video games.

LSD has the benefit of showing us that the minds perceptions and projections are mutable and ultimately unreal. It has the side effect of placing extreme importance on the projections that arise while tripping, despite that its not what appears that is important, but the fact that it *can* appear that brings upon this realization. The danger is that one begins to think that the crazy thoughts and appearances on LSD are somehow signs of realization or spiritual progress, but they are nothing more than mental fabrications entrenching one further into samsara. In my own experience the best LSD trips I've had are again when I was not using it a lot. When it was purchased with the specific intent to gain insight into my situation and self, done with that intent, and then let go, that was when I derived the most benefit from LSD, personally at least.

Mushrooms have the benefit of opening us up to our feelings more. Although it can also inspire creativity or insight into minds mutability, its the emotional aspect that has the biggest impact on our lives.

In general each drug effects different chakras. Pot is focused in the three lower chakras, which is why food, sleep and sex become central focuses of people who are high. Mushrooms effect the solar plexus and heart chakra due to its association with feelings. LSD is primarily the upper three chakras. Methamphetamine effects the throat chakra, a lot. Hence one stops wanting to eat and wants to talk, a lot. Any form of MDMA tends to also effect the solar plexus and heart chakra, which is why its now being used in small amounts in therapy (in addition to mushrooms, actually). Alcohol tends to effect the sex, solar plexus and heart chakra in different ways, although it tends to always cause some negative manifestation when done in excess (whisky dick or irresponsible choices in partners or unsafe sex, bouts of anger or sorrow, or extreme expressions of love towards people you may not know at all).

Its a path of skill in means, but one that few can follow responsibly. Its very easy to get caught in the trap of thinking drugs are enlightening you. I've seen it happen a lot in the "psychonaut" community. They always talk about how, whoa man, my third eye was like "pssshhh!". Yet they actually have no real insight to offer anyone and their words tend to just be egocentrically focused, realizing profound truths that are commonly available to anyone who can read, and easily known to anyone who applies themselves to practice. They also do not go on to be of benefit to anyone in a major way. Although some of them loosen some of the knots in the heart chakra and so forth and so become more generous or loving people, they are still heavily afflicted and their lives also tend to have an extra dose of drama to them as a result of the company they may keep.

I have yet to meet anyone who is like "I realized the nature of ultimate reality last night while on LSD" and then actually have this realization match up with their subsequent actions and so forth and be of permanent benefit to themselves and others. I've never met a single person who eliminated suffering from drug use, most of them just increase it for short or long periods of time. If anyone knows of such an example, I would be interested in hearing of it because I don't think its impossible.

Only stories of Mahasiddhas come to mind, but how are we to really hope to be as realized as them? Besides which, they also say their realization is due to the Guru, and not to drugs.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby RikudouSennin » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:03 pm

it's hard to judge the insight of another based on one's own personal experience.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:16 am

Wisdom wrote:Basically it seems the consensus is that everyone who used drugs and psychedelics at some point realized it was hindering their progress and so stopped using them. So far we all agree that drugs of many sorts can be of limited benefit, but not ultimate benefit since they cannot in themselves lead to realization.


I agree that it is something that can't continue to be used, but I don't agree that they can't lead to realization. What they can't do is enable you to integrate those states with everyday mind. I found with lysergenes that there were different phases. The phases characterised by vivid hallucinations were undeniably fascinating, but beyond that there was a state that was anectodally called 'clear light'. That was invariably, in my case, a period in which you realized the inherent perfection of everything. I knew when I was in that state that this was the goal of all existence, but I also knew that trying to maintain such a state through artificial means was doomed to failure. Nevertheless, I have never experienced anything like that since. I can't even really say I can remember what it was like, but I do remember that it was inherently great. Saying that, however, the last experiences I had with such things was in the 1970's nor would I encourage others to pursue such experiences through those means, but I wanted to make the point that as far as I'm concerned there was nothing fake or inauthentic about those realizations.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:45 am

wisdom wrote:LSD has the benefit of showing us that the minds perceptions and projections are mutable and ultimately unreal. It has the side effect of placing extreme importance on the projections that arise while tripping, despite that its not what appears that is important, but the fact that it *can* appear that brings upon this realization. The danger is that one begins to think that the crazy thoughts and appearances on LSD are somehow signs of realization or spiritual progress, but they are nothing more than mental fabrications entrenching one further into samsara.


It took me a while to work through these sentences to figure out if I agree with this entirely, but after finally figuring out what you are saying exactly, I agree. It reminds me of the very common progression I see all too often: (1) kids psyche themself up for their first few trips by reminding themselves it's only a drug and it will wear off, (2) kids' minds are blown and they mistake each others oohs and ahhhs for perhaps a freakout and they try to offer help: "don't worry, it's just acid, it's not real!", (3) kids sit around on a saturday morning totally fried after a night of tripping and start talking about their psychic experiences and the fact that they saw "real" spiritual stuff, not just hallucinatory stuff because, you know, they took the most potent psychedelic known to man. Hell no, the reason the government banned it, you see, is because it really does open a portal to the numinous!!!

:thinking:

How often have we all seen this exact progression from "don't worry, it's not real" to "you don't understand, it's totally real!" when talking about psychedelics? All too common and utterly bizarre if you think about it.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby padma norbu » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:00 am

jeeprs wrote:
Wisdom wrote:Basically it seems the consensus is that everyone who used drugs and psychedelics at some point realized it was hindering their progress and so stopped using them. So far we all agree that drugs of many sorts can be of limited benefit, but not ultimate benefit since they cannot in themselves lead to realization.


I agree that it is something that can't continue to be used, but I don't agree that they can't lead to realization. What they can't do is enable you to integrate those states with everyday mind. I found with lysergenes that there were different phases. The phases characterised by vivid hallucinations were undeniably fascinating, but beyond that there was a state that was anectodally called 'clear light'. That was invariably, in my case, a period in which you realized the inherent perfection of everything. I knew when I was in that state that this was the goal of all existence, but I also knew that trying to maintain such a state through artificial means was doomed to failure. Nevertheless, I have never experienced anything like that since. I can't even really say I can remember what it was like, but I do remember that it was inherently great. Saying that, however, the last experiences I had with such things was in the 1970's nor would I encourage others to pursue such experiences through those means, but I wanted to make the point that as far as I'm concerned there was nothing fake or inauthentic about those realizations.


I actually remember exactly what you are talking about, but I think that is more of a shift in attitude caused by many chemical/hormonal and deep psychological/emotional processes that occur from several transformative peak experience of LSD use.

I was about ready to comment about how "I remember that, but it faded away," but then I saw you said as much yourself. As a matter of fact, the few bad trips I had tinged everything with a malevolent hue which I simply could not undo with a perfect set and setting trip. There were no perfect trips after that first bad trip... and regular life became, again, pretty much the same level of negative as it was before I ever has those blissful mind-opening good trips. I don't think this LSD-induced "clear light" as you call it is anything like the real clear light of mahamudra... although, it is weird: I can specifically remember walking down the street sober and everything looked brighter as if I could see the joyous universal energy behind all appearances. I suppose it was probably just some leftover flashbacky visuals that day.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby wisdom » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:15 am

jeeprs wrote:
Wisdom wrote:Basically it seems the consensus is that everyone who used drugs and psychedelics at some point realized it was hindering their progress and so stopped using them. So far we all agree that drugs of many sorts can be of limited benefit, but not ultimate benefit since they cannot in themselves lead to realization.


I agree that it is something that can't continue to be used, but I don't agree that they can't lead to realization. What they can't do is enable you to integrate those states with everyday mind. I found with lysergenes that there were different phases. The phases characterised by vivid hallucinations were undeniably fascinating, but beyond that there was a state that was anectodally called 'clear light'. That was invariably, in my case, a period in which you realized the inherent perfection of everything. I knew when I was in that state that this was the goal of all existence, but I also knew that trying to maintain such a state through artificial means was doomed to failure. Nevertheless, I have never experienced anything like that since. I can't even really say I can remember what it was like, but I do remember that it was inherently great. Saying that, however, the last experiences I had with such things was in the 1970's nor would I encourage others to pursue such experiences through those means, but I wanted to make the point that as far as I'm concerned there was nothing fake or inauthentic about those realizations.


I agree, but this would be like getting direct introduction from a master and then never practicing Dharma another day in your life. What good would that be? This is the basic problem I am trying to point out. Insight is possible, but the insights appear to be usually impermanent.

Rikudou, I agree with what you are saying as well. Im not trying to make absolute statements. I've seen a few examples of people who are more insightful and compassionate due to drug use, but the negative things seem to outweigh the positive.

For example, an old friend of mine in the midwest is an awesome guy. He uses psychedelics of many sorts and has for many years. He is the closest thing I have ever met to someone who was enlightened and yet used drugs and moved within the psychonaught community. His mind is also unable to focus for any real period of time, he is easily distracted, everything he does takes many times longer than it should, he is disorganized, unable to really plan ahead, and his sense of timing is non-existent.

Its not for me to judge if more or less benefit was brought to him, but its clear that the drugs took their toll on his mind. Furthermore I think without drugs he would have been able to become just as good of a person, so who knows if any benefit was actually accrued.

I suppose ultimately the subjective nature of such things makes it really impossible to determine with any definitive conclusion.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby Wayfarer » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:11 am

Wisdom wrote: agree, but this would be like getting direct introduction from a master and then never practicing Dharma another day in your life. What good would that be?


The good would be that for that moment, you would know beyond doubt that it is real. But in this matter, it is literally the razor's edge - between dependency/delusion and genuine insight. And that, I suspect, is how it must always remain. There is no easy path.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:32 am

In general, pot makes people hungry, horny, lazy, self conscious and insecure. That is not taking somebody in the direction of enlightenment.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby oushi » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:11 am

wisdom wrote:Insight is possible, but the insights appear to be usually impermanent.

Maybe a word here. I don't know if it is acceptable for others to step back from insight, but remaining in it for the duration of a drug, I saw as a waste of time. The most important, for me, was how I got there. What had to be unblocked to enable this. Beside removing a nonsensical reasoning knots it was mainly related to a habituated stress. Habituated meaning invisible, moved to unconscious. So, the main method was relaxation, which happens to play a big role in some Buddhist practices. This relaxation has to be very deep, much deeper the we can do at first. It is revealed to you, by asking how was the insight possible, over and over again. Until you are done, and you don't have to ask any more.
It's not a drug that shows you the way, but you transformed mind. After realizing that, I threw away all my psychedelics to a dustbin, literally. They had nothing more to offer, still I am grateful for all the they offered, as I am able to walk the path when sober.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby TaTa » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:59 am

Am i the only one that feels(or should say know) that giving just one Puff of some tasty flowers sets up my meditation backwards weeks? I just cant see that this is just my personal expirience, it really seems to be harmfull to meditation. Thats why i move away from smoking 3 times a day to, once a month or something. And i regret every time, not because im having a bad trip (god blees meditation for equanimity) but because it takes days to get over the lack of clarity that pot gives me.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby smcj » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:26 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
oushi wrote:Violent sectors of society members just packed their toys and are heading Syria, because another violent sector members used a chemical weapon on civilians. I believe none of them was stoned.
You'd be very surprised.

An Israeli I worked with tole me that when the Palestinians feel rebellious in Israel, they often times express their displeasure by refusing to sell the Israelis hash.
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Re: Psychedelics

Postby invisiblediamond » Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:17 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
invisiblediamond wrote:Boy, you just have it all figured out, don't you? The plant is the teacher.
No I don't have it figured out, that is why I am asking questions. I understood "the plant is the teacher" bit (now what happens if your teacher is monkshood, that's another story). I asked where you got the teaching, (about "the plant being the teacher") from. From your teacher? From a book? From a website?

From the plants. But all shaman say this.

There are texts that talk about Buddha nirmanakaya manifesting as plants or even bridges.
And the names of the texts are...???

Well I got that bit from Togal instructions. I'm assuming there r sutras that say that.


Where do you get teachings from? From nirmanakayas. Duh.
Not necessarily. One can receive teachings directly from Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya manifestations, but that's a whole different story.

So where did you learn "the plant is the teacher" teaching? Who was the Nirmanakaya that gave you that teaching?

I think my question is clear now?


The plants are direct links.
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