Jes Bertelsen?

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Adamantine
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Adamantine » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:45 pm

OK, thread reopened. Please stay on point, and try to have a mature dialogue without histrionics. Thanks!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby dzogchungpa » Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:54 pm

No histrionics?! :tantrum:
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

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Barney Fife
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:51 pm

Last edited by Barney Fife on Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sönam
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:14 pm

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby wisdom » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:30 pm

Original Sin and the concept of Non-Recognition are similar, but ultimately not the same. The basic idea is the same, in both cases we are born into ignorance. However, what we are taught ignorance is, is different in Dzogchen than it is in Christianity.

The relation is that original sin stems from Adam, the perfect man, who partakes of the forbidden fruit, which is the knowledge of Good and Evil. This means that the sin is not exactly non-recognition, but rather the development of discriminatory awareness and consciousness and mentally projecting that awareness onto form. This stems from non-recognition, but the doctrines are different. Ultimately Christianity is a path of faith and devotion. Although esoterically you can find a lot in Kabbalah and Gnosticism to relate to concepts found in Dzogchen, as most Christians have experienced their religion there is little relation at all. Especially because many believe that original sin cannot be removed except by the grace of God. We can easily say "This means the grace of the Guru" but thats not whats being said nor believed. Nobody thinks their priest will liberate them from suffering, so there is a fairly big difference in view and path. Furthermore the reification of the Absolute as God prevents full realization anyways, even if it is possible to achieve some realization. Unless its understood that God means the Dharmadhatu, and unity with God means Dharmakaya, but if you believe that, why bother overlaying it with Christian symbolism in the first place, especially because at that point it stops being Christian?

Basically in Dzogchen we fail to see the essence, and so begin attachment to the manifestation of mental forms as other-than-mind and create Samsara and Nirvana. In Christianity, we don't fail to see anything, rather we are hopelessly in ignorance, partake of the "fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and this is why we suffer (in what amounts to Samsara). So the ideas are closely related, and seeing these connections can be of benefit to people, but ultimately you can't believe wholly in both. If you adopt a Dzogchen view of Christianity, you will have to accept these inconsistencies and choose to ignore them or develop your own brand of spirituality (which is fine). If you adopt a Christian view of Dzogchen, equally there will be limitations you have to accept. Otherwise you won't really be fully following either.

I have no qualms about what he is doing, and I don't even wholly disagree. If it brings benefit to others, then that's wonderful. This is just my personal opinion though, based on my knowledge of Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Dzogchen, for whatever thats worth.

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Barney Fife
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:40 pm

thank you very much, sonam. so, if all those views are not the understanding of dzogchen, it would be fascinating to hear any key points of the Dzogchen view on those deep questions, if anybody has time or inclination at some point. (will read wisdom's answer now!)



thanks,

b.f.

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Fa Dao » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:11 am

Original sin?? seriously?? Dzogchen is our real nature, the Path of self liberation, the way for going beyond our limitations and is beyond any cultural trappings. While I understand JB's premise to make it so that people can relate to and understand Dzogchen I do not agree with this method of doing it. In fact I think it is detrimental to actual Realization. Why? Simply put..we are taught to see through and not be a slave to our mental constructs..how then would it be beneficial to lace in christian constructs that are deeply embedded in the western psyche? As Dzogchen practitoners are we not trying to self liberate any and all mental constructs? At best christianity is a path of renunciation, not self liberation...therefore not very skilful to be using christian or any other religious jargon so that people can "get it". Dzogchen has plenty of metaphors/universal symbols all by itself...doesnt need mental constructs from systems that are basically antithetical to total Realization.....
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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LhodroeRapsal
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby LhodroeRapsal » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:24 am


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LhodroeRapsal
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby LhodroeRapsal » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:04 am

Btw there is a article about Jes Bertelsen in wikipedia, which from my perspective seems quite good.


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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby krodha » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:36 am


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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby LhodroeRapsal » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:53 am


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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:19 am


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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:46 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Pero » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:55 am

Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:59 am

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Barney Fife
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Barney Fife » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:42 am


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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Sönam » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:25 am

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Sönam
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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Sönam » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:38 am

By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby Karma Dorje » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:36 pm

"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: Jes Bertelsen?

Postby heart » Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:45 pm

"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)


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