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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:36 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
Because one of our mutual friends who was in Nagi Gonpa at the time confirmed it to me when I asked him about it.


Unless that mutual friend is Erik or Andreas I am not sure it has to much value, so is it?


/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:44 am 
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dzogchungpa wrote:
OK, let's not get excited. I don't know how to get in touch with Erik, but I'm pretty sure there are people reading this who do, so, can someone contact him?


Sure, but he doesn't answer anything about this right now. I can't remember exactly what he said about this before, people asked because Jes center is not far from Ranjung Yeshe Gomde in Denmark, I just wasn't enough interested at the time (also my memory is quite lousy).

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:02 am 
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Malcolm wrote:
This is the main reason why Dzogchen was so hard to find in Tibet. All those people whose lively hoods depended on merit making activities were furious that Dzogchen asserts that accumulating merit and so on is unnecessary for realizing buddhahood.

M


This is a bit off-topic but are you saying that circumstances don't matter? How about the circumstances of not meeting a Dzogchen teacher? Meeting him/her but not connecting with him? Meeting him/hear receiving the direct introduction but still not realizing buddhahood?

The natural state is fully present in all sentient beings and it isn't even hidden but still it isn't recognized, isn't it only circumstances that can change that?

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:24 am 
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Magnus, referring to one of your earlier posts in this thread , what do you think is the difference between being authorized to teach dzogchen and being a fully qualified dzogchen teacher?

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:38 am 
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alpha wrote:
Magnus, referring to one of your earlier posts in this thread , what do you think is the difference between being authorized to teach dzogchen and being a fully qualified dzogchen teacher?


It isn't something I think, to be a fully qualified Dzogchen teacher means that you should be on the third vision according to Shakya Shri for example. You also have to have a vast knowledge about Dzogchen and the capacity to lead other people. I got practical instructions in Dzogchen (rushan for example) from some of my Guru's Lamas, none of them consider themselves a fully qualified Dzogchen teacher. Still they were told to share their knowledge with me and others. So in my opinion it isn't impossible (some people say it is like this) that Jes got the authorization teach some Dzogchen but with the understanding that TUR was the fully qualified master under who's supervision this was happening. But what do I know, nothing really. :smile:

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:11 am 
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heart wrote:
alpha wrote:
Magnus, referring to one of your earlier posts in this thread , what do you think is the difference between being authorized to teach dzogchen and being a fully qualified dzogchen teacher?


It isn't something I think, to be a fully qualified Dzogchen teacher means that you should be on the third vision according to Shakya Shri for example.

I wonder what is the source of that idea. I think this goes only for Mengagde teachings (and perhaps more specifically thogal itself) because for example Semde does not have the 4 visions so how could you judge by that?

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:20 am 
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Pero wrote:
heart wrote:
alpha wrote:
Magnus, referring to one of your earlier posts in this thread , what do you think is the difference between being authorized to teach dzogchen and being a fully qualified dzogchen teacher?


It isn't something I think, to be a fully qualified Dzogchen teacher means that you should be on the third vision according to Shakya Shri for example.

I wonder what is the source of that idea. I think this goes only for Mengagde teachings (and perhaps more specifically thogal itself) because for example Semde does not have the 4 visions so how could you judge by that?


Yes, I think that is true that it is only for Mengagde. But this is what Jes is teaching.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:23 am 
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Clearly with regard to Dzogchen we are in a period of transition during which those who associate its transmission with particular structures and prerequisites are going to experience dissonance when presented with evidence that seems to contradict that conclusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:44 am 
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I have no comment about this particular situation, because I don't know the man in question and haven't read him, but there was absolutely definitely a time when TUR taught that one should never claim to be a Dzogchen teacher without having first reached the stage and accomplishments of a siddha. I am well aware that many of the people who were present at his pointing-out instructions a long time ago and who now trace their "lineage" through him are in fact teaching what they call Dzogchen, so maybe there's something going on I don't know about.


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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:41 pm 
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tingdzin wrote:
I have no comment about this particular situation, because I don't know the man in question and haven't read him, but there was absolutely definitely a time when TUR taught that one should never claim to be a Dzogchen teacher without having first reached the stage and accomplishments of a siddha.


Exactly, but that is what these days being referred to as "particular structures and prerequisites" and considered not necessary. :smile:

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:01 pm 
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heart wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
OK, let's not get excited. I don't know how to get in touch with Erik, but I'm pretty sure there are people reading this who do, so, can someone contact him?


Sure, but he doesn't answer anything about this right now. I can't remember exactly what he said about this before, people asked because Jes center is not far from Ranjung Yeshe Gomde in Denmark, I just wasn't enough interested at the time (also my memory is quite lousy).

/magnus

If people asked him, and he didn't answer, I find that kind of strange.

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:11 pm 
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dzogchungpa wrote:
heart wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
OK, let's not get excited. I don't know how to get in touch with Erik, but I'm pretty sure there are people reading this who do, so, can someone contact him?


Sure, but he doesn't answer anything about this right now. I can't remember exactly what he said about this before, people asked because Jes center is not far from Ranjung Yeshe Gomde in Denmark, I just wasn't enough interested at the time (also my memory is quite lousy).

/magnus

If people asked him, and he didn't answer, I find that kind of strange.


Not really, at least it happens to me a lot. :smile:

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:29 pm 
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Simon E. wrote:
Clearly with regard to Dzogchen we are in a period of transition during which those who associate its transmission with particular structures and prerequisites are going to experience dissonance when presented with evidence that seems to contradict that conclusion.


Well since we are talking about Jes Betelsen in this thread perhaps you are interested to know that he constructed a set of his own preliminaries with its own structures and prerequisites before teaching Dzogchen. This is according to an email discussion with his student Otsal that posted earlier in this thread.

/magnus

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:33 pm 
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Quotes from "Essence of Mind: An Approach to Dzogchen" by Jes Bertelsen:

"There are many types of continuous exercises. They could be divided into two large main categories. One type is a kind of preparation for meditation: channeling exercises, circulation exercises, and the use of symbolic images (channeling and circulation exercises such as the pineal-hara or yin-yang-breathing described in Presence Meditation, symbols such as a flower or a candle or a yantra in a chakra). The second type is the quintessence of prayer, centered in the heart in the form of a mantra (such as Jesus Christ; Kyrie eleison, Kriste eleison; La illah il allah; Namo amida butsu)
(Kindle location 1122; p. 87)

"The other main reason that these continuous exercises are necessary is our dim Precambrian lethargy, with regard to achieving greater wakefulness. In the West, this feature has been accurately described as original sin. In the East it is called negative karma. These terms indicate that the sluggishness reaches beyond the personal and deeply into our collective hereditary backgrounds. It is a feature that is embedded in evolution itself, in our genes, in the collective unconscious."
(Kindle Location 1026-130; p.80).

"It is self-evidently true that the great enlightened ones on this earth eliminate original sin and negative karma. But it is just as self-evident-- and we all see this, every day in the media-- that this does not help in the least unless each of us as individuals help the process along, with psychotherapy, ethics, prayer, meditation, and continuous exercises.
Even though this earth has seen a long line of radiant, enlightened teachers (Rumi, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Francis, Rabia, Meera, Yeshe Tsogyel, Teresa, etc.), and even though each of them, according to their individual capacity and caliber, takes on original sin and purifies it for all the rest of us, this does not help one bit unless each individual lends a hand, too. Frankly, the world has not become a better place, and people have not improved, since the Buddha and the Christ. Rather the opposite-- when seen from the ordinary levels of consciousness.
Even though there are one billion Christians on the planet, and Christ has accepted the total load of original sin for all these one billion Christians, it doesn't work. It is only when the individual does his share of the work (psychotherapy, prayer, ethical behavior, meditation, and continuous exercises) that it turns out, again and again, that at the right moment, when the mystery opens, the enlightened consciousness has already purified the negative karma and has taken and forgiven the original sin. But this divine function can only unfold when the individual human being has prepared himself or herself through existential transformation.
The old teachers bear witness to the divine power of enlightened consciousness to eliminate original sin and negative karma for oneself and others.
Master Eckhart speaks in the West:
"Indeed, you might well turn away quickly and in a short time from all sins, so strongly and with such true revulsion, and turn so strongly to God that, though you had committed all the sins that ever were or shall be since Adam's time, they would all be forgiven you, together with the punishment for them...."
Master Tulku Urgyen speaks in the East:
"One moment in the purest rigpa can eliminate the accumulation of negative karma from a whole lifetime, or even from several lifetimes.""
(Kindle Locations 1046-1064; p.81-82)

"Up to this point in the book, the description of the spiritual developmental process all the way to the process of enlightenment has been kept within the context of one lifetime, namely the present one. And-- as it is emphasized for instance in both Christian and Tibetan mysticism-- experience does show that it is possible for a person to realize the enlightenment process in one lifetime. However, Indian spiritual traditions (such as Vedanta, Jainism, Mahayana), among others, maintain that the process of spiritual enlightenment usually extends over several lifetimes, and that it is embedded in a more impersonal overarching developmental continuum. This development includes the process of the self through the progressive karma, as well as the collective karmic process at the level of joint consciousness."
(Kindle Location 1368-1374; p.106)

Would anyone be kind enough to offer some incisive Dzogchen commentary on the above passages of Jes Bertelsen's teachings? Possibly Malcolm, or someone with knowledge of the Dzogchen teachings? Thanks!

b.f.


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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:40 pm 
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There is nothing particularly Dzogchen about any of this apart from the citation of Tulku Orgyen's statement.

But as I understand the intent behind this book, it is quite early and is deliberately geared toward an audience that has no knowledge at all of what Dzogchen is or might be, and is therefore intentionally ecumenical.

In reality, there is no relationship between the concept of original sin and karma.


Barney Fife wrote:
Quotes from "Essence of Mind: An Approach to Dzogchen" by Jes Bertelsen:

"There are many types of continuous exercises. They could be divided into two large main categories. One type is a kind of preparation for meditation: channeling exercises, circulation exercises, and the use of symbolic images (channeling and circulation exercises such as the pineal-hara or yin-yang-breathing described in Presence Meditation, symbols such as a flower or a candle or a yantra in a chakra). The second type is the quintessence of prayer, centered in the heart in the form of a mantra (such as Jesus Christ; Kyrie eleison, Kriste eleison; La illah il allah; Namo amida butsu)
(Kindle location 1122; p. 87)

"The other main reason that these continuous exercises are necessary is our dim Precambrian lethargy, with regard to achieving greater wakefulness. In the West, this feature has been accurately described as original sin. In the East it is called negative karma. These terms indicate that the sluggishness reaches beyond the personal and deeply into our collective hereditary backgrounds. It is a feature that is embedded in evolution itself, in our genes, in the collective unconscious."
(Kindle Location 1026-130; p.80).

"It is self-evidently true that the great enlightened ones on this earth eliminate original sin and negative karma. But it is just as self-evident-- and we all see this, every day in the media-- that this does not help in the least unless each of us as individuals help the process along, with psychotherapy, ethics, prayer, meditation, and continuous exercises.
Even though this earth has seen a long line of radiant, enlightened teachers (Rumi, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Francis, Rabia, Meera, Yeshe Tsogyel, Teresa, etc.), and even though each of them, according to their individual capacity and caliber, takes on original sin and purifies it for all the rest of us, this does not help one bit unless each individual lends a hand, too. Frankly, the world has not become a better place, and people have not improved, since the Buddha and the Christ. Rather the opposite-- when seen from the ordinary levels of consciousness.
Even though there are one billion Christians on the planet, and Christ has accepted the total load of original sin for all these one billion Christians, it doesn't work. It is only when the individual does his share of the work (psychotherapy, prayer, ethical behavior, meditation, and continuous exercises) that it turns out, again and again, that at the right moment, when the mystery opens, the enlightened consciousness has already purified the negative karma and has taken and forgiven the original sin. But this divine function can only unfold when the individual human being has prepared himself or herself through existential transformation.
The old teachers bear witness to the divine power of enlightened consciousness to eliminate original sin and negative karma for oneself and others.
Master Eckhart speaks in the West:
"Indeed, you might well turn away quickly and in a short time from all sins, so strongly and with such true revulsion, and turn so strongly to God that, though you had committed all the sins that ever were or shall be since Adam's time, they would all be forgiven you, together with the punishment for them...."
Master Tulku Urgyen speaks in the East:
"One moment in the purest rigpa can eliminate the accumulation of negative karma from a whole lifetime, or even from several lifetimes.""
(Kindle Locations 1046-1064; p.81-82)

"Up to this point in the book, the description of the spiritual developmental process all the way to the process of enlightenment has been kept within the context of one lifetime, namely the present one. And-- as it is emphasized for instance in both Christian and Tibetan mysticism-- experience does show that it is possible for a person to realize the enlightenment process in one lifetime. However, Indian spiritual traditions (such as Vedanta, Jainism, Mahayana), among others, maintain that the process of spiritual enlightenment usually extends over several lifetimes, and that it is embedded in a more impersonal overarching developmental continuum. This development includes the process of the self through the progressive karma, as well as the collective karmic process at the level of joint consciousness."
(Kindle Location 1368-1374; p.106)

Would anyone be kind enough to offer some incisive Dzogchen commentary on the above passages of Jes Bertelsen's teachings? Possibly Malcolm, or someone with knowledge of the Dzogchen teachings? Thanks!

b.f.

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:54 pm 
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Thank you Malcolm, that's very interesting, as usual. Karma and original sin........hmmmm.....? wondering if the idea of original sin is similar to the idea of "ignorance" in dzogchen......and if Dzogchen thinks that teachers like Jesus removed all the negative karma from all Christians, or that other teachers removed all the negative karma from followers of their teachings? Don't want to keep bugging you Malcolm, if you are busy, but just always wondered about this, if anyone has any teachings on the subject.

b.f.


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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Quote:
Even though there are one billion Christians on the planet, and Christ has accepted the total load of original sin for all these one billion Christians, it doesn't work.

Has he only accepted it for them?

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Malcolm wrote:
But as I understand the intent behind this book, it is quite early and is deliberately geared toward an audience that has no knowledge at all of what Dzogchen is or might be, and is therefore intentionally ecumenical.


That's certainly how those passages read.

Kirt

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:11 pm 
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Barney Fife wrote:
Thank you Malcolm, that's very interesting, as usual. Karma and original sin........hmmmm.....? wondering if the idea of original sin is similar to the idea of "ignorance" in dzogchen......and if Dzogchen thinks that teachers like Jesus removed all the negative karma from all Christians, or that other teachers removed all the negative karma from followers of their teachings? Don't want to keep bugging you Malcolm, if you are busy, but just always wondered about this, if anyone has any teachings on the subject.

b.f.



No, the teaching of Dzogchen is actually very simple: the difference between a buddha (awakened without the performance of even the smallest virtuous deeds) and a sentient being (wandering in samsara without initially having performed the least non-virtuous deed) is the simple recognition or non-recognition of one's own state.

There is, according to ChNN, no possible way to remove all the negative karma accumulated for countless lifetimes in samsara. So it is impossible that a teacher likewise can do this for one, from the perspective of Dzogchen teaching.

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 Post subject: Re: Jes Bertelsen?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:31 pm 
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Ok, things need to be cleaned up and sorted out here.. bear with us.. back shortly. Temporarily locked.

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