the great vegetarian debate

No holds barred discussion on the Buddhadharma. Argue about rebirth, karma, commentarial interpretations etc. Be nice to each other.

Re: Veganism

Postby fragrant herbs » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:31 pm

To vegan or not to vegan that is the question?

i am a vegetarian, but i can say that when i was into raw food i felt best, but mainly it was because i was juicing also, and i am trying to juice again every day. it isn't easy. but by the time i think of it i am often too tired.

i had chronic fatigue for 6 months many years ago, and it started when the dentist took all of my mercury fillings out and replaced then with new mercury fillings. i thought mercury had been banned here or would not have alllowed it in my mouth. the idea of spending the remainder of my life this fatigued was scary, then a scientist brought me an article that he found, a woman selling a product but in this article she also mentioned feeling better almost immediately when juicing, and I zeroed in on that as her reason for being healed. It worked for me. but i was so tired that it was hard to make the juice; still i juiced once daily. Then i became a raw foodist and felt even better. and lost so most weight that i was a happy camper.

now i still drink raw goats milk, eat raw eggs and cheese. maybe someday i will make raw rice milk instead of cow or goat milk. who knows? (don't worry about the raw eggs as i have been eating them almost daily for 45 years without ill effects. the dr. thinks I am just immune to samonella. I think the fears are over rated. After all, all my life I licked the cake bowl and ate sunny side up eggs.

but now i have low thyroid, and i believe that juicing could go along way to helping me; i don't know. I also know of a doctor that cured cancer with raw carrot and raw apple juice. but my juice is 6 carrots, handful of parsley, one clove garlic, and 2 ribs of celery. i plan on adding cilantro after reading about it removing mercury or something like that.

I have not noticed that any diet can make you less angry or not. My husband eats meat all the time and never blows up in anger. that is one thing that drew me to him in the first place.

I have not noticed any different in me whether I eat meat or not. Sometimes I swore it gave me more energy, but since a 75 percent raw diet did the same, then better to choose raw foods over meat.
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Re: Veganism

Postby Aemilius » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:13 pm

I'd like to point out that in the buddhist tradition there are several practices connected with eating, firstly there is the practice of maintaining mindfulness with eating, which is very much recommended in the Hinayana sutras of the Pali collection. There are dedication verses connected with meals of the Zen tradition, there are different dedication verses to be recited at meals of the tibetan tantra & mahayana tradition, and so on... It is not just what you eat but also how you eat it.
From my own experience I can tell that after having recited a simple verse before meals for two months, I stopped doing it. Then after few days in the dream state I saw Longchenpa who looked at me and said that he can see just looking at my stomach that I haven't been doing the meal prayers and that they have a positive effect on my health and that I should resume them, (which I did naturally).
Last edited by Aemilius on Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Veganism

Postby ground » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:14 pm

Dear Ervin

Ervin wrote:I find that whenever I am on a vegan diet I am more calm. Right now I statred a raw vegan diet and I feel much calmer. In the past when I was on a vegan diet i have done the blod tests and my leves of evrything especialy cholestrerol would be very good.

I personaly believe that being vegan is a moral choice. Compassion to all sentient beings I believe should be practised.

I don't know wether I will remain vegan for good but I do believe it is a good thing.

What is your opinion on the topic?

Thanks


Congratulation! Great ...

I am convinced that the type of food influences one's state of mind.

I am only renouncing meat and meat products, sweets and limit consumption of food that is too spicy ...


This is a great vegetarian buddhist site:
http://www.shabkar.org/

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Re: Veganism

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:25 am

Never gone vegan, but I tried to live off of raw fruits and vegetables once and I felt constantly tired and hungry.

Wikipedia mentions possible health drawbacks to veganism if it isn't done carefully:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism#N ... l_concerns

Personally, I find veganism to be a form of dietary vanity. This is demonstrated by the fact that it seems that although many vegetarians aren't pushy, vegans seem to almost universally be militant PETA members. Although it's possible to have a well-planned vegan diet, in practice most don't, so they look anorexic and sickly, like cocaine and heroin addicts. And you typically need to be taking dietary supplements, which are expensive. If you eat the cheapest, healthiest diet possible (which would include meat in many western countries -- perhaps not in Asia), with the money left over you could more wisely spend it on charitable causes that would benefit other lives -- instead of complex ingredients for a vegan diet and dietary supplements.

Like Hanzze says:

Hanzze wrote:One more step forward is, just to take what is given :-)

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".
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Re: Veganism

Postby catmoon » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:02 am

Inge wrote:I have been vegan more than 10 years now, but feel mentally and physically like shit most of the time.


Plus side: you don't have to worry about offending anyone by turning into a salesman for your lifestyle.


:)
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Re: Veganism

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 10, 2010 6:52 am

catmoon wrote:
Inge wrote:I have been vegan more than 10 years now, but feel mentally and physically like shit most of the time.


Plus side: you don't have to worry about offending anyone by turning into a salesman for your lifestyle.


:)

http://www.vegetariansareevil.com/
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Re: Veganism

Postby Indrajala » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:49 pm

Individual wrote:Personally, I find veganism to be a form of dietary vanity. This is demonstrated by the fact that it seems that although many vegetarians aren't pushy, vegans seem to almost universally be militant PETA members.


What a sweeping general statement. Fact and "it seems", eh?


Although it's possible to have a well-planned vegan diet, in practice most don't, so they look anorexic and sickly, like cocaine and heroin addicts.


You're making more foolish statements.

And you typically need to be taking dietary supplements, which are expensive.


No, you don't. There are many Buddhist vegetarians who are actually vegan as they decline to take eggs and dairy (the latter still being kind of foreign to their diets to begin with).

They are healthy without having to take dietary supplements. The only concern is vitamin B12 which is probably over exaggerated as traditionally East Asian Buddhist monks and nuns were entirely vegan yet still lived long lives despite never taking supplements.

Even if you have to take vitamin B12 supplements they are not expensive.

If you eat the cheapest, healthiest diet possible (which would include meat in many western countries -- perhaps not in Asia), with the money left over you could more wisely spend it on charitable causes that would benefit other lives -- instead of complex ingredients for a vegan diet and dietary supplements.


You obviously don't know what you're talking about. Eating a vegan diet is cheap provided you cook for yourself. If you want proof look at Taiwanese Buddhism.

Like Hanzze says:

Hanzze wrote:One more step forward is, just to take what is given :-)

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".


If you're not willing to kill the animal yourself, why expect another to do it for you?
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Re: Veganism

Postby Indrajala » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:52 pm

catmoon wrote:
Inge wrote:I have been vegan more than 10 years now, but feel mentally and physically like shit most of the time.


Plus side: you don't have to worry about offending anyone by turning into a salesman for your lifestyle.


:)


Being vegetarian or vegan is not a lifestyle choice just as not being a thief is likewise not a lifestyle choice.
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Re: Veganism

Postby KeithBC » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:12 am

Individual wrote:Personally, I find veganism to be a form of dietary vanity.

Any practice can be a vanity if that's the way you do it. Even meditation and chanting mantras. But if you aren't vain about it, then it isn't.
vegans seem to almost universally be militant PETA members.

If you generalize based on militant PETA members, then of course that is what you will conclude. And of course you are more likely to generalize about them rather than about normal people because they are so much more visible. But if you control your generalizing so that you look at normal people, you will find that most vegans are normal people.
Although it's possible to have a well-planned vegan diet, in practice most don't, so they look anorexic and sickly, like cocaine and heroin addicts.

Generalizations tell us more about the colour of glasses you look through than they do about what you are looking at.

Veganism is a fine way of putting Buddhist values into practice. It is not a requirement unless one's conscience dictates it to be so.

Om mani padme hum
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Re: Veganism

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:50 am

Huseng wrote:
Individual wrote:
Hanzze wrote:One more step forward is, just to take what is given :-)

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".


If you're not willing to kill the animal yourself, why expect another to do it for you?

If they were not willing to kill, they would not bring me meat. :)
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Re: Veganism

Postby fragrant herbs » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:51 am

Inge wrote:I have been vegan more than 10 years now, but feel mentally and physically like shit most of the time.


I am sorry to hear this. Have you been to see a doctor to find out why? I would encourage it.
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Re: Veganism

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:29 am

Like Hanzze says:

Hanzze wrote:One more step forward is, just to take what is given :-)

This is better.

"Please don't kill anything, but I will eat whatever you have for me".


If you're not willing to kill the animal yourself, why expect another to do it for you?


To be just vegetarian is a lie. The point is not killing, not order to kill and not accept killing. If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.
That is the reason why Buddha toke what was given, and also his disciples walk for begging. That is the only way to abstain from killing, be not involved and don't force it.
Humans ideas to bend the truth is endless. :-)
If you also reject meat when you walk for your alms round, that would be a good teaching, but some would be mad at you.
Just that! :-)
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Re: Veganism

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:10 am

Hanzze wrote:To be just vegetarian is a lie. The point is not killing, not order to kill and not accept killing. If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.
That is the reason why Buddha toke what was given, and also his disciples walk for begging. That is the only way to abstain from killing, be not involved and don't force it.
Humans ideas to bend the truth is endless. :-)
If you also reject meat when you walk for your alms round, that would be a good teaching, but some would be mad at you.

:good:

I would love to be in a world with nothing but vegetarians.

And what about veganism? (Hanzze, in case you don't know that word, vegan = vegetarian + no egg, dairy, etc.). Veganism doesn't make much sense because there is not even any killing involved in milking a cow or making eggs. I know the argument, "Dairy cows and egg hens are often used for their meat too." By this same reasoning, vegans should not enter a grocery store which sells meat, because although they sell vegetables, they also are complicit in the manufacture and sale of meat.
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Re: Veganism

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:33 am

Individual wrote:I would love to be in a world with nothing but vegetarians.

And what about veganism? (Hanzze, in case you don't know that word, vegan = vegetarian + no egg, dairy, etc.). Veganism doesn't make much sense because there is not even any killing involved in milking a cow or making eggs. I know the argument, "Dairy cows and egg hens are often used for their meat too." By this same reasoning, vegans should not enter a grocery store which sells meat, because although they sell vegetables, they also are complicit in the manufacture and sale of meat.

What is the problem with eggs not inseminated? Should we let it rotten?
What is the problem with shared milk? Should we tip it away?
I guess it just a helpless try to find a solution while ignoring the truth of killing. In a "modern" society you will not find a way out in any way.

That remembers me on ascetic. That leads to nothing than suffering. The middle path, between need and want. Not the middle path between all kinds of wants.
Just that! :-)
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Re: Veganism

Postby ground » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:11 am

Hanzze wrote:To be just vegetarian is a lie. The point is not killing, not order to kill and not accept killing. If you grow your vegetables by your self, mindful, you will see there is still killing. If you know how vegetarian food is made, you will still see killing.


That is an incorrect presentation from a Mahayana point of view.

The point of not eating meat is not causing harm.

When you eat meat you can only do so when you accept killing and when you accept that there is someone who does the killing Why? Because the proof for that is right in front of you on your plate.
So the harm caused is twofold: With reference to the being being killed and with reference to the being who does the killing.

This is not the case with vegatarian food. Why? Because you can not know for sure that killing is involved.

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Re: Veganism

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:23 am

Often I had discussions about killing with monks. Cambodian monks are smart in finding a way out in keeping there desire.

"When have a sward in your hand you close your eyes and you start to dance swinging the sward. Do you think you could harm others?"

"When you know that our modern agriculture is using pesticides, destroying masses of forest, spending mass on gasoline for its produce, do you think buying vegetables will harm?"

It is a lie, even it seams to be better at the fist view. Try to plant your vegetables and you will see your self how many fight you have to win till you can eat it.
Only by observing your self you will understand. That has nothing to do with views, that is Buddhadharma.
Just that! :-)
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Re: Veganism

Postby ground » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:26 am

Hanzze wrote:"When you know that our modern agriculture is using pesticides, destroying masses of forest, spending mass on gasoline for its produce, do you think buying vegetables will harm?"

It is a lie, even it seams to be better at the fist view.


You are choosing what you consume.

Do not accuse others of lying. Look into yourself whether there is lie or not.

Advocating eating meat does not generate conducive conditions for your path.

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Re: Veganism

Postby ground » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:32 am

We should encourage each other to renounce causing harm wherever possible!

Let's advocate virtuous conduct!


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Re: Veganism

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:47 am

Dear TMingyur,
I encourage everybody to eat vegetarian. It needs me a long time to get even the people in my household understand that. But they also understand the meaning behind now. That is the best way we can do. But it is a lie to tell people there is no bad karma behind. The essence is not harming. And the essence is going beyond.
Buddha gave his disciples the way of begging because that is the best to stay not involved in harming.
You are choosing what you consume is also wrong, you consume what you choose. Not choosing and take that what is given is the noble way of not harming.
Looking into one self, is most important and I would not tell it if I haven't experiences it by my self. To tell something without having seen it by one self is easily a lie.
To be vegetarian is also good for your meditation practice and keep a lot of anger and fear away from you. People love to follow rules, but to follow rules is very dangerous without understanding. You do not live where live happens. Here you would realize nature much faster. Some vegetables have more blood on it than some roosted chicken.
We could close our eyes, but ignore the truth do not protect from karmic results.
May all have the possibility to live on a peaceful place, may all have the possibility to grow their food in a peaceful way.
Just that! :-)
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Re: Veganism

Postby ground » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:55 am

Through eating meat one knowingly causes harm. Do not do that!

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