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"The Deathless" (amata) - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:33 pm


squarepeg
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby squarepeg » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:57 pm

I feel asthough there is a tendonsey to take buddhist termonolgy out of the context of a living organism when pali terms act as a foundation for cultural concepts and wording. They are taken as entities, that is to say that a pali term, i feel, is seen as being created by the Buddha with a set amout of qualities, and then it becomes our goal to reason out a perspective or wording that is able to take into account all of these percieved inherient qualities that we feel the pali word rightly deserves.

With that being said, if one were to realize this deathless state, whitch the term "state" here is ment to take into account the presence of those who have not realized this amata and is purely ment to define amata by compairson to the mundane. Not to say that amata or nibbana has some sort of limitation from which a boarder can be constructed, but a "state" as defined by the limited perception of those un-realized beings, defined for the sake of us who relay on definition. In this case we become the boarder from which amata or nibbana is to be seen as limited, because to be seen as unlimited something has to be experienced in the 1st person, and the opposite is true that everything experienced in the 3rd person is to be seen as limited.

If one were to realize this deathless "state" while still alive, assuming that it is infinite, all subsequent 1st person, assuming a 1st person in the same way the term "state" is used, i.e. a 1st person that is infered by the experience of a 3rd person. All subsequent "infered" 1st person experience would by definition of infinite have to be defined by this moment of amata realization. Death or Parinibbana taking place after this realization would therefor fall under the influence of this deathless realization.

So in response to Spiny O'Norman: I think it would be safe for us definers to say that this amata would encompass, by means of a 3rd person infering a 1st person, both the attainment of Nibbana and all subsequent actions including the extinguishing of the life force at the moment of death or Pari-Nibbana.
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:28 pm


squarepeg
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby squarepeg » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:04 pm

"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:48 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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retrofuturist
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:39 pm

Greetings Kirk,

Nice find. I wonder what Tilt will make of it...

:juggling:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:42 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:58 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:01 am


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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:12 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Aloka
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Aloka » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:41 pm

In the book "The Island - An anthology of the Buddha's teachings on Nibbana" by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro, Chapter 7 is called "Attending to the Deathless". The book is available in PDF or free by post from Forest Sangha Publications.





.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:12 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:16 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:19 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:58 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:06 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:24 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:03 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:01 am

Greetings Tilt, Kirk, all,

I know Tilt likes the "freedom from death" translation, but it's hard to see the etmology of this translation. It's certainly not a literal one, as there doesn't seem to be anything there resembling "freedom" let alone "freedom from" in the Pali word amata.

Similarly, to pick up Tilt's point, there's no "the" in amata either, so similarly, "the deathless" is not a literal translation of the term in question either.

Both "freedom from death" and "the deathless" are interpretations of what amata might mean rather than a literal and agreed definition per se. Being interpretations they're both far more subjective than an agreed definition, and different people will have their preferred interpretation for different reasons... hence the reasons different people are presenting different suttas, and finding that neither interpretation universally applies or fits with all.

Now I'm not a Pali expert at all, but a reasonable etymology for amata seems to be...

a [not] + mara [death] + ata [ness]

It's not an interpretation - it's a deconstruction of the term into (what might be) its constituent components.

And despite all the brouhaha about how amata should be interpreted, and the fact I'm sure a hundred and one holes could be poked through my Pali tinkering, the definition "not-deathness" I propose here seems to be an amenable fit with all the suttas that have been provided by participants in the discussion.

Any thoughts on "not-deathness"? Perhaps try substituting it into the sutta extracts provided above and see how it fits.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Postby kirk5a » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:37 am

The etymology looks to be linked to the english "immortal"
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :2001.pali
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230


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