Emptiness and Nothingness

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
[N.B. This is the forum that was called ‘Exploring Buddhism’. The new name simply describes it better.]
Punya
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby Punya » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:03 am

Just as the trunk of an ordinary tree
Lying in the forests of the Malaya mountains
Absorbs the perfume of sandal from the moist leaves and branches
So you come to resemble who whomever you follow.

~Words of My Perfect Teacher

shel
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here

Postby shel » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:29 am


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Konchog1
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Konchog1 » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:31 am

Gampopa says that phenomena could only be said not to exist if they had existed in the past. Since phenomena have never existed, they are not non-existent.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

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oushi
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby oushi » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:02 am

Say what you think about me

shel
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby shel » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:08 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:40 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

shel
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby shel » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:10 pm


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wisdom
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby wisdom » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:13 pm

Oushi appears to be talking about "Sealing the view with the object of emptiness". This means that once a person has realized the truth of emptiness, rather than abiding within that emptiness without any conceptualization about it, they start labeling everything as "empty". This is empty, that is empty, I am empty, look at all the empty things! But that is a contradiction because emptiness implies the non-existence of things whatsoever, so its just a continuation of previous mental imputation onto non-existent objects.

This in turn leads to Nihilism because such a person has not realized Dharmakaya. Emptiness has become an object of mental fixation, rather than an experience of abiding in the true nature of reality itself without fixations. This creates many problems because such a person often thinks they really do understand, they gain a great deal of confidence in their faulty view and as a result it can be hard to extricate a persons mind from that mistake.

In terms of meaning, Nihilists believe there is no meaning to anything because its all empty. This is also a wrong view because they are not recognizing the inseperability of the ultimate nature and appearances. They are only seeing that appearances are non-existent, but they are not seeing what is unchanging, all pervasive, infinite, eternal, and so forth.

Furthermore, if you impute that the qualities of Dharmakaya (unchanging, all pervasive, infinite, eternal, indestructible and so forth) are real objects of the mind and reality, then you fall into the trap of eternalism.

So what is the meaning of reality and life? It is inexpressible. In this sense there is still no meaning because the ultimate nature of reality remains indeterminate and beyond mental expression, but it is a lack of meaning that is wonderful, full, and spontaneously acts for the benefit oneself and others. Of course, I'm just a deluded sentient being with many afflictions, so this is just all my personal opinion based on studying the writings of the Great Masters.

invisiblediamond
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby invisiblediamond » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:47 pm

You could say nothing is a word for not thinking of something. You can interchange the words nothingness and emptiness. Of course these words need context and that context is your friends. If you doubt that, try talking to people who have no background in your religious lingoes. Then, try to alter the lingoes a bit among your friends. If you are not the leader, you will be ousted. Language is political.

Anyway, what I meant by the sentence, the final analytic is nothingness is just that you can never finally analyze anything. There is always more to talk about. There is no final idea, therefore, the final analytic doesn't exist. "Doesn't exist" is nothing, no there, nothingness, what have you. Having "realized" nothing is final, you give up pursuing it. So that is a samadhi, the relaxation to not reckoning anything out, because the mind naturally feels expansive when it's not focused.

I was being provocative a bit with the phrase. And my "what?" comment was to see if you were going rap dogmatic in a buddhisty way. Trained parrots repeat stuff they heard. Philosophers try to rephrase and see if there's something more at play than just what we think we mean by the words we say. I don't know where we are with that on this thread though.

BTW, there are plenty of pith instructions that have been written down in books that say emptiness is a special kind of nothingness. Goes something like, "You have to learn to see this 'nothingness." It's a a nothingness where the 'ness' is used to negate the itself a little bit, so that while no things are found, neither is nothing. It doesn't take much to understand this in a way that doesn't lead to depression. To avoid feeling crappy about living in a line drawing, one comes to understand the lines are drawn by our attitudes. So that having a positive attitude makes the nothingness appear in all kinds of nice ways to be happy about.

shel
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby shel » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:22 am


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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:16 am

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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oushi
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby oushi » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:34 pm

Say what you think about me

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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:38 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Nothing
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Nothing » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:01 pm


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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:12 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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oushi
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby oushi » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:20 pm

Say what you think about me

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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:29 pm

Last edited by Grigoris on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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oushi
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby oushi » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:39 pm

Last edited by oushi on Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:41 pm

Please see the edit to my previous post.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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oushi
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness

Postby oushi » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:44 pm

Please, see the edit to my post ;)
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