Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby Dave The Seeker » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:17 pm

muni wrote:There are a lot of different manners to eat our noodle Dharma soup. But the soup doesn't digest if we grasp to the way we feel comfortable with, we need to eat. Then it digest and all focus on the way how to do is gone. There is just peace and no corrections of others' spoons or bowls, while they are actually dying of starvation.
Instead there arises an incredible compassion in order all can eat-digest Dharma in their possible way. I suppose then we can learn how to help and tell beings how to do by their possible ways in accordance with their being.

Therefore, I feel it is dinner time.

While I saw on travel an information paper with instructions of the oxigen mask and saw this as a fine souvenir to put in my hand bag, I heard on the plane: put first your own oxigen mask on and breath normally, then help children and others as well to put it on.

Which type this is, I don't know. I suppose it depends on own mind.

:namaste:



:good:
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby flavio81 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:57 am

Anders wrote:Brendan,

You have profoundly misunderstood what Buddhahood means in all traditions of Buddhism.

Buddhahood does not = liberation for all living beings.

Buddhahood is obtained for the sake of liberating all beings, because it is the pre-eminent way of assisting beings to their liberation. But it has always been the case in all traditions that Buddhas can not awaken others by their own power. They can assist, but ultimately it is up to oneself to make the step across the threshold and liberate oneself.

I really don't know what to say except that if you have these ideas, you really need to study some Buddhism 101. There is some kindergarden stuff you have missed and it is sad to see you are using your lack of education as a basis for such slander.


Excellent advice.
:thumbsup:
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby Red Faced Buddha » Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:42 pm

smcj wrote:
Give it a try. Let us know how it works out.

Come don't get personal. I sheparded 40 Saasen goats in the Alps. I wouldn't call it impractical, but you think different Konchog?

I tried it. It didn't work. It was a train wreck. My own (defiled) imagination of what I thought that entailed defeated me.

Now I stick to paths the texts describe as 'inferior'. It's working much better for me now.

But hey, don't let me stop you. Maybe it's more karmically appropriate for you than me.


Something like this. I've never understood the Shepherd Bodhisattva. But I used to think I had to be. I've aspired to be the King-Like Bodhisattva, not out of any self-interest, but more out of practicalness. If you're going to help people escape from a burning house, it's better to do it when you have all your gear on.
A person once asked me why I would want to stop rebirth. "It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want to be reborn."
I replied. "Wanting to be reborn is like wanting to stay in a jail cell, when you have the chance to go free and experience the whole wide world. Does a convict, on being freed from his shabby, constricting, little cell, suddenly say "I really want to go back to jail and be put in a cell. It sounds pretty cool. Being able to come back. Who wouldn't want that?"
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:17 am

Give it a try. Let us know how it works out.[/quote]
Come don't get personal. I sheparded 40 Saasen goats in the Alps. I wouldn't call it impractical, but you think different Konchog?[/quote]
I tried it. It didn't work. It was a train wreck. My own (defiled) imagination of what I thought that entailed defeated me.

Now I stick to paths the texts describe as 'inferior'. It's working much better for me now.

But hey, don't let me stop you. Maybe it's more karmically appropriate for you than me.[/quote]

Something like this. I've never understood the Shepherd Bodhisattva. But I used to think I had to be. I've aspired to be the King-Like Bodhisattva, not out of any self-interest, but more out of practicalness. If you're going to help people escape from a burning house, it's better to do it when you have all your gear on.[/quote]

If you read the accomplishments on the Bumi stages, and one must progress from one Bhumi state to the next.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism)

I think all the burning houses would of been put out by now.

If the claims in the stages of the Bhumis are correct. Omniscience (the ability to read minds) is clearly stated as an accomplishment on Bhumi 7 along with the perfections http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramita.

Not to mention the claims in the next Bumis. One Bhumi 10 one can be as many as all the atoms in the universe, along with accomplishing the perfectionshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramita .

I think this place would be slightly different than what it is.

To say that anything more than the Shepard Bodhisattva has been achieved seems to be silly.
Last edited by brendan on Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:49 am

flavio81 wrote:
Anders wrote:Brendan,

You have profoundly misunderstood what Buddhahood means in all traditions of Buddhism.

Buddhahood does not = liberation for all living beings.

Buddhahood is obtained for the sake of liberating all beings, because it is the pre-eminent way of assisting beings to their liberation. But it has always been the case in all traditions that Buddhas can not awaken others by their own power. They can assist, but ultimately it is up to oneself to make the step across the threshold and liberate oneself.

I really don't know what to say except that if you have these ideas, you really need to study some Buddhism 101. There is some kindergarden stuff you have missed and it is sad to see you are using your lack of education as a basis for such slander.


Excellent advice.
:thumbsup:


Are you sure?

I understand the cognition is still individual.

If that were true the Theravardin path would not be classed as a "lower vehicle". It is classed as a lower vehicle due to it only achieving enlightenment for oneself. Also the Mahayana and Vajrayana paths view Arhatship as still having subtle traces of afflictions due to there still being suffering sentient beings.

Read the Bhumi stages and one must apparently progress through these stages 1 BY 1 to attain Mahayana Buddhahood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism)

So one must achieve all 10 of these Bhumis. If you read the accomplishments (ability to read minds, achieving the 6 perfection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism) perfect generosity, patience etc) before achieving Mahayana Buddhahood.

On the 10 Bhumi apparently one can manifest as many atoms as there are in the universe. I think its great that someone could come up with this cognition.

But if all these Bhumi stages were achieved (for ones self as Anders points out), I think this place would clearly be different.

Not to mention there are another 3 Bhumis on the Vajrayana path and a few more on the Dzogchen path.

To claim "suffering is empty" from a Mahayana and Vajrayana view seem a bit silly.

I think Anders is a Mahayana Buddhist Scholar so I hope I am not being rude.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby kirtu » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:28 pm

brendan wrote:To claim "suffering is empty" from a Mahayana and Vajrayana view seem a bit silly.


Suffering is empty because suffering is caused by something. Suffering is ultimately caused by ignorance but specific suffering has specific causes and conditions and these are nearly impossible to tease out (what specific causes and conditions led to what exact experience of suffering). This would be asking for specific karma an only a Buddha can elucidate that.

But suffering itself is empty because it is a dependent arising, something caused by other causes and conditions. As such, specific suffering will end. But a being's suffering will not end until they eliminate the causes for future suffering and for the arisal of future suffering. This can only be totally eliminated by the attainment of Buddhahood.

Buddhahood cannot be attained for oneself alone. It can only be attained for the sake of all beings.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:56 pm

kirtu wrote:
brendan wrote:To claim "suffering is empty" from a Mahayana and Vajrayana view seem a bit silly.


Suffering is empty because suffering is caused by something. Suffering is ultimately caused by ignorance but specific suffering has specific causes and conditions and these are nearly impossible to tease out (what specific causes and conditions led to what exact experience of suffering). This would be asking for specific karma an only a Buddha can elucidate that.

But suffering itself is empty because it is a dependent arising, something caused by other causes and conditions. As such, specific suffering will end. But a being's suffering will not end until they eliminate the causes for future suffering and for the arisal of future suffering. This can only be totally eliminated by the attainment of Buddhahood.

Buddhahood cannot be attained for oneself alone. It can only be attained for the sake of all beings.

Kirt


If Buddhas can elucidate karma it would of already occurred. To say that karma will only be elucidated if there is co-emergence from the other side is a cop out. Of course that is how it occurs but Buddhahood claims it can eradicate karma.

So if the Taliban community would at this moment were to receive a transmission on Vajrasattva, the elucidation would commence providing the correct cognition was invoked. Why is so much co-emergence required from the other side?

Buddhahood is not complete.

Cessation of suffering has only occurred on paper.

Thanks for all the quotes.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:38 am

Why is so much co-emergence required from the other side?

Because we have free will.

Buddhahood is not complete.

Cessation of suffering has only occurred on paper.

Thanks for all the quotes.

This is obviously an issue for you. Feel free to wrestle with it all you want, but in my experience people that insist it is the responsibility of others to make their life right are always disappointed.

And, as a footnote, it is my understanding that practice provides the confidence necessary to take the responsibility for yourself, but I don't have any quotes I can give to substantiate that.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby brendan » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:34 am

smcj wrote:
Why is so much co-emergence required from the other side?

Because we have free will.

Buddhahood is not complete.

Cessation of suffering has only occurred on paper.

Thanks for all the quotes.

This is obviously an issue for you. Feel free to wrestle with it all you want, but in my experience people that insist it is the responsibility of others to make their life right are always disappointed.

And, as a footnote, it is my understanding that practice provides the confidence necessary to take the responsibility for yourself, but I don't have any quotes I can give to substantiate that.


The explanation is a free will seems a bit like an excuse.

I understand the mechanics of co-emergence, but considering the endearments of Buddhahood.
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Re: Types of Bodhisattvas in Vajrayana

Postby smcj » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:05 am

The explanation is a free will seems a bit like an excuse.

Not at all. It is my understanding that since everything manifest is interdependent and impermanent, then it can and must change. And since all that is ultimately empty (=liberated=free), choice, severely limited at the initial stages of practice, becomes greater and greater freedom as one progresses. That's not a cop-out, but it is just my opinion.

I understand the mechanics of co-emergence, but considering the endearments of Buddhahood.

I'm not sure i understand your usage of "co-emergence", but it seems like what I would call the "causal vehicle", where one must accumulate massive stockpiles of merit & awareness via one's own willpower in order to become enlightened. There is also the "taking the results as the path" approach where you can utilize the accomplishments of the Mahasattvas in your practice from the beginning. But since I don't really what you mean by co-emergence we might be talking about apples and oranges.
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