What does this mean?invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
Emptiness and Nothingness
Emptiness and Nothingness
Topic split from here.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Nihilists?
Why is middle way so bad?
Why is middle way so bad?
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
What?gregkavarnos wrote:What does this mean?invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
What does "The final analytic is nothingness" mean? I don't understand what you are trying to say with this statement. I am trying to understand your statement. Do you understand what I am saying? What do I need to do to make myself clearer?invisiblediamond wrote:What?gregkavarnos wrote:What does this mean?invisiblediamond wrote:The final analytic is nothingness.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".
As Robert Thurman puts it "there's no such thing as nothing".
It's a fantasy.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
How does that clarify Gregkavarnos's apparent cluelessness?Adamantine wrote:shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Shel, he was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness" which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why. If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.shel wrote:How does that clarify Gregkavarnos's apparent cluelessness?Adamantine wrote:shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Uh... it wasn't my statement.Adamantine wrote:Shel, he [gregkavarnos] was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness"
Nonsense. Nothing stands on the very same existential footing as something. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific in your existential claims.... which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why.
Gregkavarnos only recognizes proper synonyms? Alright, thanks for explaining.If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.
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Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Adamantine wrote:Shel, Buddhist philosophy through the ages has taken
great pains to distinguish sunyata from "nothingness".
As Robert Thurman puts it "there's no such thing as nothing".
It's a fantasy.
In my experience, nothingness seems a good label for the fantasy/nightmare projected by ego as a perspective in which to hide -either permanently (c.f. 'desire for non-existence') or temporarily (if 'somethingness' is still the ideal)- when its maintenance becomes problematic. This concept of an impermeable 'fuzziness' that excludes everything -perhaps triggered by the delusion that one is fundamentally conscious of nothing but being conscious- is logicaly opposed to the emptiness that 'permeates' and includes everything: If there are no inherent identities or substances making up 'things', then both the 'things' and their absence are empty and there is therefore no backdrop that might otherwise override the 'things' in an ontological sense. This means there's no ultimate way of distinguishing a 'subjective' from an 'objective'.Johnny Dangerous wrote:Emptiness is actually everything, and has no beginning, end, center etc. it's not nothingness or the opposite of existence.
This might all be off-topic if not for the confusion typically generated in beginners by the mahayana emphasis on emptiness that's rightly apparent on Dharmawheel. When understood, emptiness brings you down to earth, and -I'm told- this intellectual understanding is merely the beginning _ _
you wore out your welcome with random precision {Pink Floyd}
Re: Emptiness and Nothingness
It seems reasonable to say that "nothingness is at least a concept.
Emptiness in Buddhist terms on the other hand (right or left your choice) refers to the fact that nothing is existent on it's own , you can't break something down to a final something that is a unique "it". Reality tho is all around us. No?
Gassho
Lawrence
Emptiness in Buddhist terms on the other hand (right or left your choice) refers to the fact that nothing is existent on it's own , you can't break something down to a final something that is a unique "it". Reality tho is all around us. No?
Gassho
Lawrence
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Emptiness is not nothingness.shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness
Since emptiness describes..well..everything, it's closer to everything than nothing, lol.
IIRC correctly Lankavatara says something like "things are nothing but a concatenation", that does not describe nothingness, only lack of independent existence.
IIRC correctly Lankavatara says something like "things are nothing but a concatenation", that does not describe nothingness, only lack of independent existence.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
It's curious that we're even having this discussion on a buddhist forum. Greg is not just being pedantic shel, they are simply not synonyms.shel wrote:Uh... it wasn't my statement.Adamantine wrote:Shel, he [gregkavarnos] was confused by your statement "the final analytic is nothingness"
Nonsense. Nothing stands on the very same existential footing as something. Perhaps you'd care to be more specific in your existential claims.... which really is nonsensical, and my above statement should help you clarify why.
Gregkavarnos only recognizes proper synonyms? Alright, thanks for explaining.If you meant to refer to emptiness, then "nothingness" is not a proper synonym.
Perhaps a read of this thread http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=9728 will help (despite its meanderings) although I'm none the wiser as to what is considered to be wrong with Je Tsongkhapa's view of emptiness.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
~Chatral Rinpoche
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help?kirtu wrote:Emptiness is not nothingness.shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Kirt
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
There's a big difference between no-thingness, nothingness and emptiness.shel wrote:Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help?kirtu wrote:Emptiness is not nothingness.shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Kirt
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Emptiness and Nothingness
That will help a lot.shel wrote:Try thinking of it as no-thingness. Maybe that will help?kirtu wrote:Emptiness is not nothingness.shel wrote:Emptiness, Mr. gregkavarnos, emptiness. You do know what that is I trust. Even if you believe it's all theoretical.
Kirt
There is no such thing as nothingness. Nobody ever experienced nothingness. It is a dead word.
Say what you think about me here.
Re: I Don't Know What I'm Doing Here
Alright, why don't we try no-[inherent]-thingness. Is that working for you yet?kirtu wrote: There's a big difference between no-thingness, nothingness and emptiness.
Kirt
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Re: Emptiness and Nothingness
I've never liked the term No-thingness because it seemingly implies a lack of things, and emptiness isn't lack or abundance, multiplicity or singularity of stuff, its just the mode of how things are. Then again, the term emptiness seems to get misinterpreted as some sort of nihilistic lack of existence by many non-Buddhists, and perhaps even some Buddhists. So..words fail.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Emptiness and Nothingness
Emptiness does mean the lack of an abiding self. Nihilism is about lack of meaning, quite different.