I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Pema Rigdzin
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

shel wrote:
Uh... only a God could know that there are no Gods. You may not think it matters if Buddha is a God, or is thought of as a God, but you would be wrong.
Well, Buddha said himself that he's not a god, so I guess the case is closed.
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by shel »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
shel wrote:
Uh... only a God could know that there are no Gods. You may not think it matters if Buddha is a God, or is thought of as a God, but you would be wrong.
Well, Buddha said himself that he's not a god, so I guess the case is closed.
Uh... I repeat, only a God could know that there are no Gods. Whether or not he's a God, if he said that there are no Gods that gives him the power (omniscience or whatever) or status of a God.
Pema Rigdzin
Posts: 1292
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

shel wrote:
Uh... I repeat, only a God could know that there are no Gods. Whether or not he's a God, if he said that there are no Gods that gives him the power (omniscience or whatever) or status of a God.
By your logic, only a god could know what is only knowable by a god. ;)
Pema Rigdzin/Brian Pittman
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by shel »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
shel wrote:
Uh... I repeat, only a God could know that there are no Gods. Whether or not he's a God, if he said that there are no Gods that gives him the power (omniscience or whatever) or status of a God.
By your logic, only a god could know what is only knowable by a god. ;)
Exactly, and only mortals know what is knowable to mortals. Or to put it another way, we don't know what we don't know. We can guess and make stuff up of course. We're very good at that. :smile:
Greg
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:42 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Greg »

shel wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
shel wrote:
Uh... I repeat, only a God could know that there are no Gods. Whether or not he's a God, if he said that there are no Gods that gives him the power (omniscience or whatever) or status of a God.
By your logic, only a god could know what is only knowable by a god. ;)
Exactly, and only mortals know what is knowable to mortals. Or to put it another way, we don't know what we don't know. We can guess and make stuff up of course. We're very good at that. :smile:
You've failed to distinguish your terms - "god" is worthless if you don't define it. It is true that only an omniscient being could know there are no other omniscient beings. But a non-omnipotent omniscient being could certainly know that there is no ultimate creator deity without any contradiction.
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am
Contact:

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Seishin »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Seishin wrote:
jonaz108 wrote:... Lord Buddha therefore said that there is no God...
He did not say this.

Gassho,
Seishin
Buddha Shakyamuni indeed talked about the so-called supreme deity/creator god in a Pali sutta and explained that this god was simply the first to be reborn in his particular pure realm and just assumed he was an all-powerful creator. Ad then of course Madhyamaka teachings, which simply clarify fundamental teachings given by the Buddha, destroy the argument for the possibility of a creator god. So...
He acknowledged the existence of gods (plural) but that they were not our creators nor our saviours . The OP suggested that the Buddha said that gods did not exist. He did not say that.

Gassho
Seishin.
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by shel »

Greg wrote:
shel wrote:Exactly, and only mortals know what is knowable to mortals. Or to put it another way, we don't know what we don't know. We can guess and make stuff up of course. We're very good at that. :smile:
You've failed to distinguish your terms - "god" is worthless if you don't define it. It is true that only an omniscient being could know there are no other omniscient beings. But a non-omnipotent omniscient being could certainly know that there is no ultimate creator deity without any contradiction.
I'm sorry Sir, but you've failed to distinguish your terms - "omniscient" is worthless if you don't define it. I know that 'knowing everything' sounds pretty straightforward, but maybe it's not. Why just the other day I was having a friendly chat with Gregkavarnos about this very topic. Some interesting things came up (despite the alledged lack of interest in such things :tongue: ). For instance, does knowing everything mean knowing things in the future or across time?
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

For instance, does knowing everything mean knowing things in the future or across time?
I like the phrase "consumate perspicacity". That definition is the only thing Geunther ever contributed of value, IMHO.

A lama I knew that had understanding of the modern world said that seeing Truth was like seeing with x-ray eyes; you see through things, past how they appear to how they really are. Old Tibet did not have that analogy available to them.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by shel »

smcj wrote:
For instance, does knowing everything mean knowing things in the future or across time?
I like the phrase "consumate perspicacity". That definition is the only thing Geunther ever contributed of value, IMHO.

A lama I knew that had understanding of the modern world said that seeing Truth was like seeing with x-ray eyes; you see through things, past how they appear to how they really are. Old Tibet did not have that analogy available to them.
They had water and other transparent objects back in old Tibet. Perhaps they just weren't good at the whole analogy thing.
User avatar
yan kong
Posts: 292
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:01 am

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by yan kong »

shel wrote:
Uh... only a God could know that there are no Gods. You may not think it matters if Buddha is a God, or is thought of as a God, but you would be wrong.
I will assume this refers to the monotheistic idea of a god.[/quote]

Well, obviously, being that a God knowing another God would equal at least two Gods. Perhaps all the other Gods know Buddha and merely never mentioned his existence.[/quote]


The original post refers to incarnations of God not to multiple gods.
"Meditation is a spiritual exercise, not a therapeutic regime... Our intention is to enter Nirvana, not to make life in Samsara more tolerable." Chan Master Hsu Yun
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by plwk »

My 2 rupees...
Atheists do not want any God, and Lord Buddha therefore said that there is no God, but he adopted the means to instruct his followers for their benefit. Therefore he preached in a duplicitous way, saying that there is no God. Nonetheless, he himself was an incarnation of God.
Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 5.15.1, Translation and Purport:
There are 2 main issues as i see it to this statement...
Firstly, amongst Hindus, many are split over (like the quotes you gave later) whether or not this 'Buddha' is the same as the historical Buddha that 'Buddhism' claims as its founder (although a fairly large number of them assume that it is). Since this issue is a never ending one, I would just leave it as it is and not regurgitate another 100 paged debate.

Secondly, atheists and atheism. I will make a note here that I have oft used the term 'non theist' to describe the message of 'Buddhism' as this would be more fitting term in my poor estimation to steer away from incompatible ideas of modern atheism and the claims of theism & theists (and the latter part is what atheism is against per se).
And by the way, atheism can also be distinguished from atheists. Not everything that a supposed atheist does or claim is necessarily compatible with atheism per se.

Thirdly, like so many other claims, if assuming on the insistence that the historical Buddha is seen as the same figure as what some Hindus claim him to be, then let's have a look at two main rebuttals from recorded teachings... (just excerpts only)
a. On him being a deva:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
On one occasion the Blessed One was traveling along the road between Ukkattha and Setabya, and Dona the brahman was also traveling along the road between Ukkattha and Setabya. Dona the brahman saw, in the Blessed One's footprints, wheels with 1,000 spokes, together with rims and hubs, complete in all their features. On seeing them, the thought occurred to him, "How amazing! How astounding! These are not the footprints of a human being!"

Then the Blessed One, leaving the road, went to sit at the root of a certain tree — his legs crossed, his body erect, with mindfulness established to the fore.
Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga.

On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"
"No, brahman, I am not a deva."
......
"When asked, 'Are you a deva?' you answer, 'No, brahman, I am not a deva.' ..... Then what sort of being are you?"
......
"Brahman, the fermentations by which — if they were not abandoned — I would be a deva: Those are abandoned by me, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising.......
"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'Awakened.'
b. There are other numerous discourses in which anyone can google on in the early & later periods of Buddhist scriptural collection (as I do not intend to turn this simple reply into an answer from the Congress Library) where the Buddha points out on how the idea or assertion of a Creator, First Cause, the Father of All thingy is either irrelevant, unconnected and faulty with what he had awakened to and taught as Dharma: duhkha & duhkha nirodha.
Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued: The son of Mahārāja Bharata known as Sumati followed the path of Ṛṣabhadeva, but some unscrupulous people imagined him to be Lord Buddha himself. These people, who were actually atheistic and of bad character, took up the Vedic principles in an imaginary, infamous way to support their activities. Thus these sinful people accepted Sumati as Lord Buddhadeva and propagated the theory that everyone should follow the principles of Sumati. In this way they were carried away by mental concoction.
I will look at this threefold...assuming he meant the historical Buddha as the 'atheistic' Buddha as coined by another 'Srila Naryana Gosvami Maharaja'...
a. Atheism? The Buddha taught on duhkha & duhkha nirodha, as also embodied in the Noble Eightfold Path, the Madhyama Pratipada, not any kind of 'isms'.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is declared by me?
'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me.
'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me.
And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life.
They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.
"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times.
And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times?
Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
That is the ancient path, the ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. I followed that path.

b. I am not sure if this is in reference to Jains or Buddhists or some other Sramanic movements but suffice to note that when it comes to 'bad character', as in unskillful actions? Or in reference to not belonging to a particular system regarded as orthodox? If it was the former, it can be immediately refuted both by the testimony of those who have encountered the Buddha, both followers & non-followers in numerous instances & what is contained in his Teaching. If it was the latter, see 1 2
And on 'mental concoction', when one of his own long time attendants, Sunakkhatta/Sunakstra from the influential Licchavi clan accused the Buddha of the same, here using '...teaches a Dhamma (merely) hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him...', see how the Buddha responds here
Purport by Srila Prabhupada:
Those who are Āryans strictly follow the Vedic principles, but in this age of Kali a community has sprung up known as the ārya-samāja, which is ignorant of the import of the Vedas in the paramparā system. Their leaders decry all bona fide ācāryas, and they pose themselves as the real followers of the Vedic principles. These ācāryas who do not follow the Vedic principles are presently known as the ārya-samājas, or the Jains. Not only do they not follow the Vedic principles, but they have no relationship with Lord Buddha. Imitating the behavior of Sumati, they claim to be the descendants of Ṛṣabhadeva. Those who are Vaiṣṇavas carefully avoid their company because they are ignorant of the path of the Vedas. In Bhagavad-gītā (15.15) Kṛṣṇa says, vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ: "The real purpose of the Vedas is to understand Me." This is the injunction of all Vedic literatures. One who does not know the greatness of Lord Kṛṣṇa cannot be accepted as an Āryan. Lord Buddha, an incarnation of Lord Kṛṣṇa, adopted a particular means to propagate the philosophy of bhāgavata-dharma. He preached almost exclusively among atheists. Atheists do not want any God, and Lord Buddha therefore said that there is no God, but he adopted the means to instruct his followers for their benefit. Therefore he preached in a duplicitous way, saying that there is no God. Nonetheless, he himself was an incarnation of God.[/color]
Firstly, the Acarya is most entitled to what he thinks, like anyone else. But when claiming stuff related to the founder of Buddhism, I wonder if he remembers this as well?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two?
He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata.
And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata.
These are two who slander the Tathagata."
Secondly, meanwhile, I wonder if he knows that not all atheists hold or define atheism per se is not about 'not wanting any God' but rather many would postulate a mere rejection & questioning of what theism & theistic claims for lack of discernible & demonstrable evidence?

Thirdly, as shown in the first part, the Buddha's own words, as recorded in various scriptural collections, refutes claims of divinity and as shown also, in the scheme of the Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path, the claims of theism and the theistic are irrelevant, unconnected and faulty.

Fourthly, on the Vedas?
See here & here: with Commentary what the Buddha proposes as the 'proper way of union with Brahma', nothing more but the fourfold Brahma Viharas...

Fifthly, I guess just like all other religious interpretations, what the Vedas are or not remains an inconclusive debate even amongst the Hindus.
When Adi Sankaracarya first appeared and championed the Vedas, his brand of Vedanta was thought of as a great victory over the 'nastikas' and re-establishing 'orthodoxy'?
Yet, later when all the other forms of Vedanta arose, they each started having their own interpretations and like one friend of mine who has a poor opinion of Sankaracarya where he has been accused of promoting a 'hidden form of Buddhism', that his only victory are that of over materialists and philosophical speculators but not the 'true devotees of the Lord', hence lost to the Tibetan Buddhists in a debate and putting himself into a pot of boiling oil yet in the same breath spouting that he's Mahesvara and his death was only by the permission of Sri Krishna? So I am not too sure on how much weight does Acarya Prabhupada hold except that only those who have regard for him would find him an authority?
This reminds me of the conundrum that Martin Luther, the German Reformer faced back then when he first broke away from papal authority, he didn't expect that there would be others who would eventually split from him. And today, some estimate that the Protestants are divided over around 50,000 sects and are still at it... So, not all of them would confess nor admit that each other's versions are on the same page on the Lord Jesus, each only upholding their version?

So, what is 'Buddha' from one Buddhist POV?
My fav would be from the Vajracchedika Prajna Paramita...
Who sees me in forms,
Who seeks me in sounds,
He practices a deviant way,
And cannot see the Tathagata


Another from the Vakkali Sutta
He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma.
Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma.


As one Hindu of mine opines, the Sanatana Dharma is like a great mother, embracing all of her astika and nastika children equally :lol:
Personally, I admire what they have next to Taoism but the focus for me remains on what is duhkha & duhkha nirodha.
I doubt I can manage more than one wife... :mrgreen:
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by shel »

freakpower70 wrote:
shel wrote:Well, obviously, being that a God knowing another God would equal at least two Gods. Perhaps all the other Gods know Buddha and merely never mentioned his existence.
The original post refers to incarnations of God not to multiple gods.
I'm willing to settle for multiple incarnations of God. How bout you? :tongue:
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Wayfarer »

The Buddha is not concerned with or teaching 'belief' as such. There is a need for some degree of belief, as in a 'willingness to consider', but the emphasis in Buddhism is on seeing how the processes of the mind give rise to suffering through mis-identification, and so on.

But if there are those who wish to pursue liberation through belief in God, then that is their perogative.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
M.G.
Posts: 443
Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:56 am

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by M.G. »

I've met a few theists who are truly bewildered, even threatened, by the reality of a world religion which denies a creator God.

Other than that, I'd say that quotes like those cited in the OP highlight how often people use the cloak of religion to voice whatever they find convenient or clever.
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by shel »

jeeprs wrote:The Buddha is not concerned with or teaching 'belief' as such. There is a need for some degree of belief, as in a 'willingness to consider', but the emphasis in Buddhism is on seeing how the processes of the mind give rise to suffering through mis-identification, and so on.
The purpose is the cessation of suffering, and if you haven't achieved that, or actually know anyone who has achieved that, then belief is required. Belief is not a bad thing.
User avatar
jonaz108
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by jonaz108 »

smcj wrote:In the late 19th century a Russian journalist wrote a book about Jesus having traveled to India to learn Buddha's Dharma. Nobody that checked his "sources" found evidence of any such thing. Yet the idea persists even to this day. That doesn't make it true. :focus:

Read the Bavishya Maha Purana.
Here:
http://www.turnonyoursoul.com/jesus/bha ... purana.htm
Namaste,
John
Since I live in Portugal, I can only answer to posts between 9:00 and 20:00 (0º UTC).
User avatar
jonaz108
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by jonaz108 »

[/quote]

Buddha Shakyamuni indeed talked about the so-called supreme deity/creator god in a Pali sutta and explained that this god was simply the first to be reborn in his particular pure realm and just assumed he was an all-powerful creator. Ad then of course Madhyamaka teachings, which simply clarify fundamental teachings given by the Buddha, destroy the argument for the possibility of a creator god. So...[/quote]

He acknowledged the existence of gods (plural) but that they were not our creators nor our saviours . The OP suggested that the Buddha said that gods did not exist. He did not say that.

Gassho
Seishin.[/quote]

No I didn't...
Srila Prabhupada (not me) said that Buddha denied the existence of a Supreme Creator God, not Devas or Demi-Gods.
"...Lord Buddha therefore said that there is no God,..."
Since I live in Portugal, I can only answer to posts between 9:00 and 20:00 (0º UTC).
Simon E.
Posts: 7652
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by Simon E. »

The term ' Hinduism' is shorthand for a whole raft of views from Bhaktiyoga to impersonal Vedanta. It was invented by western scholars. But it is a convenient piece of shorthand...
What is common to all ' Hindu ' traditions is a complete unwllingness to examine the possibility that a system of belief can exist which is outside of its purlieu.

So everything must be gathered up and explained by the light of ' Hinduism '..therefore the Buddha and even Jesus must be Incarnations of Visnu.

This universalism and appropriation amounts to an excellent way to completely misunderstand all non Hindu paths. It is even more effective than opposing them.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
User avatar
jonaz108
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by jonaz108 »

M.G. wrote:I've met a few theists who are truly bewildered, even threatened, by the reality of a world religion which denies a creator God.

Other than that, I'd say that quotes like those cited in the OP highlight how often people use the cloak of religion to voice whatever they find convenient or clever.
Ridiculous observation... I don't even comment.
Since I live in Portugal, I can only answer to posts between 9:00 and 20:00 (0º UTC).
User avatar
jonaz108
Posts: 65
Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 6:38 pm

Re: I just want to hear your opinion. No offenses please,

Post by jonaz108 »

I am sad to see that some people prefer cheap insults rather than debate...
There was nothing offensive in this verse from the Srimad Bhagavatam,
which has 5000 years old at least, and was not invented by Srila Prabhupada...
I am in favor of pluralism but all I see is hatred between cultivators of all
traditions, some Vaishnavas included. So sad.
With that, I am taking temporary break from forums of the kind, and
dedicate myself to my sadhana.
I am honored to have met some good souls here... sorry, some good people here.
Your friend and servant,
John
Since I live in Portugal, I can only answer to posts between 9:00 and 20:00 (0º UTC).
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”