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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:08 pm 
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Thanks for your work as a moderator here, Greg.

For what it's worth, many of the members here (like me) don't follow controversial issues here closely and don't really care about them. I don't post here that often, but it seems to me that you've done an okay job as moderator. I certainly wouldn't have the patience for such a thing, so I respect your diligence.

Enjoy your vacation! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:38 pm 
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Thank you for your service, Greg. It is true that moderating is often a thankless job, and often full of grief. Wish you all the best during your vacation.

DS


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:39 pm 
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I'm not sure of the etymology behind the term moderator, but I would like to think it refers to someone that makes things more moderate and less extreme. Where there is aggression, to calm it with patience; to add cooling reason to the heat of passionate emotive debate.

At times on DW, both in threads and PMs, I have been bemused by unnecessarily inflammatory accusations and harsh speech. I know some posters here enjoy "shooting from the hip" and speaking in very 'direct' [or rude] ways to make a point, but my "constructive criticism" would be that moderators should be as moderate in their speech as possible and encourage that culture of calm discussion amongst other DW members.

That said, I'm sure all the moderators here do a difficult job to the best of their ability, and that is commendable.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Thanks for your work here, Greg.
For my part I can only say that I have found you consistently friendly, helpful, thoughtful and supportive.
Thank you! :bow:

I think you have earned a holiday and I hope you enjoy it - and I hope you do return to your role here.

:namaste:
Kim


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:48 am 
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Greg, haven't had much (any) chance to touch virtual hands with you as yet. From what I have read in the various threads that involve you as a moderator you are decisive when it is required, and largely do not close or stop threads prematurely. As a participant in discussions (from what I have read of course) you often show great insight, humour, compassion and understanding. Are you perfect? No, but then it would be unrealistic to expect you or any of us to be so. You are human. :smile:

It is a difficult task to be a moderator of a forum that encourages vigorous debate. Perhaps you may be able to use the heaps of negativity that have been dumped on you to deepen your own insight into the nature of metta? Either way, enjoy the break from this, find some peace and return only when you are ready. We all have something to learn from you.

Until then... :namaste:

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“Not till your thoughts cease all their branching here and there, not till you abandon all thoughts of seeking for something, not till your mind is motionless as wood or stone, will you be on the right road to the Gate.”


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:54 am 
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Dharmarakshita wrote:
When others find fault with whatever we are doing
And people seem eager to blame only us,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have been shameless, not cared about others,
We have thought that our deeds did not matter at all,
Hereafter let's stop our offensive behavior.
-Wheel of Sharp Weapons


Either use whatever is thrown at you to crush your self-cherishing, or choose a different role. What a great opportunity to practice patience and generosity!

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"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly."
~Arthur Carlson


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:38 am 
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I've always liked gregkavarnos as a member of this forum. He's got spunk. But that kind of spunk makes for a terrible moderator. I suggest not taking leave and simply dropping the role of moderator. Isn't that the obvious solution to the problem?

What was described in the OP is awful, really awful, and the fact is that the situation will be no different a month from now. Taking leave, rather than dropping the role as moderator, will not solve anything.

Think of it this way, Gregkavarnos has given what he can, but now it's time to let someone else take over. There is absolutely no need to prolong Gregkavarnos' suffering.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:18 am 
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shel wrote:
I've always liked gregkavarnos as a member of this forum. He's got spunk. But that kind of spunk makes for a terrible moderator. I suggest not taking leave and simply dropping the role of moderator. Isn't that the obvious solution to the problem?
I've got another solution: Supposed Dharma practitioners start acting like actual Dharma practitioners (that applies to me too, of course). Bizarre proposal ain't it? ;)
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What was described in the OP is awful, really awful, and the fact is that the situation will be no different a month from now. Taking leave, rather than dropping the role as moderator, will not solve anything.
I relise nothing will change, the leave is for me to assess whether I can continue under the same (and possibly worse) conditions.
Quote:
Think of it this way, Gregkavarnos has given what he can, but now it's time to let someone else take over.
Do you have anybody crazy enough in mind? :tongue:

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:19 am 
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Karma Dorje wrote:
Either use whatever is thrown at you to crush your self-cherishing, or choose a different role. What a great opportunity to practice patience and generosity!
Good point!

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:20 am 
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michaelb wrote:
At times on DW, both in threads and PMs, I have been bemused by unnecessarily inflammatory accusations and harsh speech. I know some posters here enjoy "shooting from the hip" and speaking in very 'direct' [or rude] ways to make a point, but my "constructive criticism" would be that moderators should be as moderate in their speech as possible and encourage that culture of calm discussion amongst other DW members.
Another very good point! Thank you!

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:28 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
michaelb wrote:
At times on DW, both in threads and PMs, I have been bemused by unnecessarily inflammatory accusations and harsh speech. I know some posters here enjoy "shooting from the hip" and speaking in very 'direct' [or rude] ways to make a point, but my "constructive criticism" would be that moderators should be as moderate in their speech as possible and encourage that culture of calm discussion amongst other DW members.
Another very good point! Thank you!

Indeed a good point, but if you could help yourself in this area it would not have come to this. You're not cut out for this, Gregkavarnos, why make others and yourself suffer unnecessarily?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:33 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
Think of it this way, Gregkavarnos has given what he can, but now it's time to let someone else take over.
Do you have anybody crazy enough in mind? :tongue:


You make it hard for yourself. I don't think you can help it. Look at other moderators here, do they all have it as bad as you describe in the OP? If not you should ask yourself why.

gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
I've always liked gregkavarnos as a member of this forum. He's got spunk. But that kind of spunk makes for a terrible moderator. I suggest not taking leave and simply dropping the role of moderator. Isn't that the obvious solution to the problem?
I've got another solution: Supposed Dharma practitioners start acting like actual Dharma practitioners (that applies to me too, of course). Bizarre proposal ain't it? ;)

They do act like Dharma practitioners. Dharma practitioners are ordinary people. Your bizarre idealism about who you think frequent this forum is probably part of the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:29 am 
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shel wrote:
You make it hard for yourself. I don't think you can help it. Look at other moderators here, do they all have it as bad as you describe in the OP?
Yes. Maybe to a lesser degree, since they do not involve themselves in moderating to the same degree as I did over the past ten months, but "yes" nonetheless.
Quote:
They do act like Dharma practitioners. Dharma practitioners are ordinary people. Your bizarre idealism about who you think frequent this forum is probably part of the problem.
Yes, well, thank you. I am aware of your theory that Dharma practice does not gradually make somebody a "better" person as they steadily progress towards enlightenment. I disagree with the theory. I do believe it is a poor excuse for us to continue acting like *ssh*l*s while we pretend that we are getting enlightened. I don't buy it. I don't buy it because my teachers actually tell me (and show me through their actions) otherwise. I don't buy it because I have seen how practice has helped me develop. Yup, that's right, I was waaaaayyy worse! Yes, I am also aware of the disdain that you feel towards people that trust in qualified and realised teachers. We have discussed this before. We are not going to discuss it again. Not here.

You are though, the second person to say that I am not cut out for the job. Somebody else expressed it as: lacking psychological maturity. You are also the second person to not actually explain why they feel I am not cut out for the job. Care to elucidate?

Sorry to all the people that have expressed positive opinions about my moderating abilities. It is not as if I am ignoring you. Actually, I wish to thank you for your words of support. It is just that I am trying to use the criticisms in order to see the weak points in my abilities. I want to see how I could posibly be a better moderator. I believe that taking intelligent criticism into account is a good way to develop ones abilities.

_________________
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:40 am 
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I can respect your decision. Spiritual discussions have a way of turning into sour and heated arguments, and who wants more of that?

We've had some disagreements on this site, but I always appreciated your willingness to defend my right to express myself in my more controversial posts. Best of luck to you, and enjoy your leave.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:57 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
shel wrote:
You make it hard for yourself. I don't think you can help it. Look at other moderators here, do they all have it as bad as you describe in the OP?
Yes. Maybe to a lesser degree, since they do not involve themselves in moderating to the same degree as I did over the past ten months, but "yes" nonetheless.
Quote:
They do act like Dharma practitioners. Dharma practitioners are ordinary people. Your bizarre idealism about who you think frequent this forum is probably part of the problem.
Yes, well, thank you. I am aware of your theory that Dharma practice does not gradually make somebody a "better" person as they steadily progress towards enlightenment. I disagree with the theory. I do believe it is a poor excuse for us to continue acting like *ssh*l*s while we pretend that we are getting enlightened. I don't buy it. I don't buy it because my teachers actually tell me (and show me through their actions) otherwise. I don't buy it because I have seen how practice has helped me develop. Yup, that's right, I was waaaaayyy worse! Yes, I am also aware of the disdain that you feel towards people that trust in qualified and realised teachers. We have discussed this before. We are not going to discuss it again. Not here.

You are though, the second person to say that I am not cut out for the job. Somebody else expressed it as: lacking psychological maturity. You are also the second person to not actually explain why they feel I am not cut out for the job. Care to elucidate?

Sorry to all the people that have expressed positive opinions about my moderating abilities. It is not as if I am ignoring you. Actually, I wish to thank you for your words of support. It is just that I am trying to use the criticisms in order to see the weak points in my abilities. I want to see how I could posibly be a better moderator. I believe that taking intelligent criticism into account is a good way to develop ones abilities.

All of which is of no avail until you acknowledge that this situation has not happened in a vacuum and take at least some responsibility for it.
I know, and I think you know, that my views which I have expressed openly and honestly represent the tip of an iceberg of opinion. Otherwise this thread would not exist.
So weigh the views of those that you have not offended, insulted and sent aggressive pm's against those who have, but are either not putting their heads above the parapet or have left.
In your heart you know just what I am talking about.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:37 am 
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Simon E. wrote:
All of which is of no avail until you acknowledge that this situation has not happened in a vacuum and take at least some responsibility for it.
I don't think I have stated anywhere that I have no responsibility, the thing I object to is being made solely responsible.
Quote:
I know, and I think you know, that my views which I have expressed openly and honestly represent the tip of an iceberg of opinion. Otherwise this thread would not exist.
You should try speaking for yourself. If others feel the same way you do they are quite welcome to come and express themselves. You don't have to play the lawyer for them.
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So weigh the views of those that you have not offended, insulted and sent aggressive pm's against those who have, but are either not putting their heads above the parapet or have left.
You may be surprised to find that not all of those that I have "offended, insulted and sent aggressive pm's" react in the same way as you. Some of them have actually expressed "positive" feelings towards me in this thread.

Again you are VERY willing to put me into the equation, but are unwilling to see your role. You see when you react to something I do, YOU REACT. I am responsible for my actions and you are responsible for your reaction.

For example: if I wished to, I could have just reacted angrily and vindictively (and taken advantage of my position as moderator) and just vanished your first post. It was quite clearly written with a mind full of anger and in an attempt to hurt. I didn't. I looked at how I could utilise the post in order to produce something positive. If I had reacted out of anger, we would not be continuing our conversation right now. We would not be looking at ways to resolve the apparent issue that exists BETWEEN US. This is not to say that I was not hurt or upset by your post, of course I was. I just tried not to act out my aversion. And this ties back into the "self-help" thing that "shel" has such an aversion towards which is why I am going to indulge in an appeal to authority (something which "shel" hates with a vengance :tongue: ):
Quote:
The prerequisite for a freer and happier future is to learn from our mistakes of the past and avoid them in the future. Taking this into account, we should resolve under no circumstances to react negatively- be it at the cost of our life. We do not need to undertake anything special for this, such as escaping from ordinary life or mortifying our body - we simply have to control our mind. We change our conduct by changing our intention. Intentions are the motive power behind all our actions. That is where we must start and pay attention.
When our self-cherishing and jealous attitude is replaced by an altruistic , benevolent attitude, then peace happines and well-being appear automatically... We must stop getting entangled in harmful emotions, as they are the source of all unwholesome actions and all suffering.
Gendun Rinpoche - Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master

He goes on to start the next section with:
Quote:
The point is not to change others or the world, but to master our own mind.
Some damn fine advice, I must say! :twothumbsup:

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:40 am 
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Quote:
"gregkavarnos"
Now, I am not perfect, actually I am nowhere near being perfect, far from it, but my actions here at Dharma Wheel (as delusive as they may be) have been intended to maintain a forum that is friendly, intelligent, safe, supportive and informative for its members. I have tried to keep my ego out of the equation, as much as possible, but the quantity of vitriol thrown in my direction seems to me to be excessive, in comparison to the extent of any mistakes I have made (and I have made a few).


What are all these mistakes you acknowledge you have made ????
can you provide a list of these mistakes for constructive criticism?


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:47 am 
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gregkavarnos wrote:
Taking leave, rather than dropping the role as moderator, will not solve anything.... I relise nothing will change, the leave is for me to assess whether I can continue under the same (and possibly worse) conditions.


You should do what is best for you. There's no point in continuing to bang your head against a brick wall - if that's what it feels like.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:48 am 
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Son of Buddha wrote:
What are all these mistakes you acknowledge you have made ????
can you provide a list of these mistakes for constructive criticism?
A list? :rolling:

I am sure you are aware of some of them, so why not deal with the ones that regard you?

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"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE


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 Post subject: Re: Taking Leave
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:50 am 
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shel wrote:
You're not cut out for this, Gregkavarnos, why make others and yourself suffer unnecessarily?


There are very few people who are really "cut out" to be a moderator, for most people it's a steep learning curve and often quite challenging.


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