Taking Leave

Taking Leave

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:30 am

Dear members,

After 10 months of moderating here at Dharma Wheel I have decided to take leave from my duties for one month, starting from tomorrow.

Over the past ten months I have been accused of:

Being pro-gyalpo and anti-gyalpo.
Being too strict and being too lax.
Being sectarian and being broad minded.
Being liberal and being conservative.
ad nauseum...

This has happened both on this site, and on other sites. It has happened in threads, blogs, via Private Messages, emails, etc...

I have been threatened, lied to, deliberately misinformed, bullied, cajoled, baited, teased, scapegoated, victimised, demonised, slandered, unconstructively criticised, etc...

And all of this by people that consider themselves Dharma practitioners. By people that claim that they are practicing the Buddhadharma.

Now, I am not perfect, actually I am nowhere near being perfect, far from it, but my actions here at Dharma Wheel (as delusive as they may be) have been intended to maintain a forum that is friendly, intelligent, safe, supportive and informative for its members. I have tried to keep my ego out of the equation, as much as possible, but the quantity of vitriol thrown in my direction seems to me to be excessive, in comparison to the extent of any mistakes I have made (and I have made a few).

Just so people don't accuse me of negativity: there is some really interesting, informative and good-willed discussion and debate happening here at Dharma Wheel. No doubt about it! If it wasn't for this I would not even consider being here. Unfortunately though, the negativity really wears me down. Being used as an emotional punching bag by the "psychologically [and emotionally]* challenged" (to quote a friend of mine :smile: ) is incredibly taxing.

So, it has come to the point where I need to take some time off and ask myself: "Is it worth the effort?"

Like everybody here, my life includes a fair deal of suffering. So do I need to (voluntarily) add more suffering? Do I need to go out of my way to invite more suffering? I mean, it is difficult enough dealing with the suffering I already have, do I need more? If so, why?

I invite everybody (and I really mean everybody) to give constructive (and I REALLY mean constructive) input. It will be truly appreciated. Please do not take this as an opportunity to further lay the boot in. I am quite sick of the taste of shoe leather and rubber soles.
:namaste:
Greg
*The section in the square brackets is my addition.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby porpoise » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:35 am

gregkavarnos wrote:I invite everybody (and I really mean everybody) to give constructive (and I REALLY mean constructive) input. It will be truly appreciated. Please do not take this as an opportunity to further lay the boot in. I am quite sick of the taste of shoe leather and rubber soles.


Being a moderator on one of these forums is often a thankless task, so having a break from it makes a lot of sense. :smile:
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Nosta » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:05 am

After reading your post, I am surprised and sad to see that you have been threatened :(

Its bad when people start "flaming" on internet just because they have different opinions.

I believe you will be strong enough to deal with this. Dont disapear from our sight, there still exist people here in the forum that likes you :)
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Simon E. » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:32 am

A frank response.
I think your taking leave is an unqualifiedly good thing for everyone . Particularly you.
I think the idea to have you pissing out of the boat instead of your erstwhile pissing in was good in theory,,but has not worked out in practice.
The same guy who was frequently suspended ( or took himself off in a sulk I never knew which) never left. But just shifted all his iraccibility and verbal incontinence and personality issues into the role as mod.
I think that you have not the psychological maturity for the role.
None of which justifies your being labelled as anything you are not by people whose instability was in evidence and should have been stopped long before they started mod-baiting.
Personally while wishing you well, sincerely, I hope you will extend your period away.
Who knows it might even result in the reappearance of some old faces.
If thats not 'constructive ' enough then I am sure you can and will make it go away.
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Dave The Seeker » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:55 am

I know being a mod is a difficult thing to do.
You have been a fair mod as far as I'm concerned and hope the time off will help you to regather yourself.
You are and have been a great help to me and many others here, I hope this is only a break from being a mod.

Hang in there my friend

:namaste:
Dave
Everyday problems teach us to have a realistic attitude.
They teach us that life is what life is; flawed.
Yet with tremendous potential for joy and fulfillment.
~Lama Surya Das~

If your path teaches you to act and exert yourself correctly and leads to spiritual realizations such as love, compassion and wisdom then obviously it's worthwhile.
~Lama Thubten Yeshe~

One whose mind is freed does not argue with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the conventional terms of the world without clinging to them
~The Buddha~
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:04 am

Simon E. wrote:A frank response.
I think your taking leave is an unqualifiedly good thing for everyone . Particularly you.
I think the idea to have you pissing out of the boat instead of your erstwhile pissing in was good in theory,,but has not worked out in practice.
The same guy who was frequently suspended ( or took himself off in a sulk I never knew which) never left. But just shifted all his iraccibility and verbal incontinence and personality issues into the role as mod.
I think that you have not the psychological maturity for the role.
None of which justifies your being labelled as anything you are not by people whose instability was in evidence and should have been stopped long before they started mod-baiting.
Personally while wishing you well, sincerely, I hope you will extend your period away.
Who knows it might even result in the reappearance of some old faces.
If thats not 'constructive ' enough then I am sure you can and will make it go away.
Of course this is not constructive. This is a perfect example of the sort of anal expulsiveness (to use a Freudian term) that exemplifies what I have to put up with on an almost daily basis. But I am not going to ask for your post to "go away", because I am going to use it in order to teach what a constructive criticism would actually be. Let's break it down shall we?
I think your taking leave is an unqualifiedly good thing for everyone . Particularly you.
A constructive statement would then go on to explain why taking leave would be "an unqalifiedly good thing" and why "Particularly for you".
I think the idea to have you pissing out of the boat instead of your erstwhile pissing in was good in theory,,but has not worked out in practice.
A constructive statement would elucidate on what exactly "pissing" means in this specific instance. What "in" or "out" means in relation to the action.
I think that you have not the psychological maturity for the role.
A constructive statement would outline what exactly is meant by psychological maturity, so that the individual asking for peoples opinion and help (ie me) can then work on developing the aspect of "psychological maturity".
The same guy who was frequently suspended...
This is just untrue. I won't go into why exactly, though I could, as it will just (unecessarily) open a Pandoras box.
...iraccibility and verbal incontinence and personality issues into the role as mod.
I am not going to argue against the fact that I suffer from these problems, a constructive statement would be one that would recommend to me how I can overcome these problems.
If thats not 'constructive ' enough then I am sure you can and will make it go away.
The fact that you ended your tirade with this qualifier is evidence that you are well aware of the unconstructive nature of your, to quote your words: "verbal incontinence".

Thanks for the vote of confidence though. My question to you is: do you consider yourself psychologically mature enough to withstand being an emotional punching bag for every type of psychological and emotional misfit conceivable? If so, please feel free to volunteer your services here at DW!
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"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Simon E. » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:51 am

I am well aware of that which constitutes a constructive response.
However I chose to interpret that as a plea to not be given what you are so adept as dishing out, and so I frankly, ignored it and said what I actually think instead.
Which of course may well differ from you you wanted to hear..which was presumably pleas to stay and sympathy for your plight.
I think you know exactly what I meant by your having spent a long time..years.. pissing into the boat at every opportunity.
I think your present situation is a result of you sowing winds going right back to your time as one of the hecklers and sneerers-in chief on E Sangha, and that you are now reaping the whirlwind..
I think there is a name for that..
Of course labelling you as a Dolgyal follower was fatuous and ridiculous, but it is noticeable that the person who did that was allowed to spout fatuous calumnies in an unrestricted way , until he made the mistake of including mods in his ravings.
I will not be volunteering to be a mod. A) because I actually have a demanding job which prevents me from spending huge amounts of time hanging around a web forum and B) Because I suspect that I would be no more tempramentally suited to the role as presently configured than you are.

But I am not the subject here. It is not me that is penning a ' Goodbye Cruel Website.'
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby seeker242 » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:44 pm

Things like this always remind me of this particular scripture. It's a good one!

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then the brahman Akkosaka[1] Bharadvaja heard that a brahman of the Bharadvaja clan had gone forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words.

When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahman: Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?"

"Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests."

"And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies?"

"Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies."

"And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?"

"If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine."

"In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours.

"Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours."
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Simon E. wrote:I am well aware of that which constitutes a constructive response.
So please engage in one.
However I chose to interpret that as a plea to not be given what you are so adept as dishing out, and so I frankly, ignored it and said what I actually think instead.
Which of course may well differ from you you wanted to hear..which was presumably pleas to stay and sympathy for your plight.
Well, you interpreted it wrongly. I am not after "pleas to stay and sympathy for my plight", I requested constructive input from everybody. CONSTRUCTIVE. I am a big boy and quite capable of dealing with well intentioned criticism. WELL INTENTIONED.
I think you know exactly what I meant by your having spent a long time..years.. pissing into the boat at every opportunity.
I have no idea regarding the meaning of this metaphor. I do not understand what it means. I do not understand exactly what you are trying to say. Am I being clear?
I think your present situation is a result of you sowing winds going right back to your time as one of the hecklers and sneerers-in chief on E Sangha, and that you are now reaping the whirlwind..
Dude! You are holding a grudge against me since E-Sangha days!!!??? I mean, here I was trying to understand where all this anger that you display towards me comes from, and now you tell me it was due to some flippant remarks I may have made years ago??? I'm stunned!

You may have a point though. I did not consider my role at E-Sangha as one of heckler and sneerer (in-chief!!!???). I can think of at least four people that had the clout to pull off that role, I wouldn't include myself in the list. But anyway, I digress. Obviously I must have engaged in the aforementioned behaviour otherwise you would not have reason to bring it up!
(14) When we hear only language that is foul and abusive,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have said many things without thinking;
We have slandered and caused many friendships to end.
Hereafter let’s censure all thoughtless remarks.
Now you have certainly given me some food for thought.
Of course labelling you as a Dolgyal follower was fatuous and ridiculous, but it is noticeable that the person who did that was allowed to spout fatuous calumnies in an unrestricted way , until he made the mistake of including mods in his ravings.
a) Wrong. b) Completely irrelevant.
But I am not the subject here. It is not me that is penning a ' Goodbye Cruel Website.'
I am not penning a "Goodbye Cruel Website", quite the contrary, I am not planning to leave the website, just mulling over resigning from my role as moderator and explaining to people why I am taking leave (in order to circumvent the atrocious quantities of gossip that will ensue).

So please feel free to stop spitting your bile all over the place, it's staining the virtual furniture! ;)
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby oushi » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:19 pm

I will miss you.
Say what you think about me here.
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Simon E. » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:25 pm

If you really think that my response was about 'flippant' remarks, or that my reply was an expression of some personal vendetta, and that my attitude towards you is not shared widely by many who no longer post on this forum, then you are not only carrying a whole load of aggression..a fact which is well known, but you are naif.
And therein I suspect lies much of the problem. You see yourself as having made a few flippant remarks a long time ago. The reality is that the number of eyebrows that shot skywards when you were made a mod would amount to a forest...Just weeks before you had performed one of your 'toys out of the pram' routines and then crawled back sheepishly.
Well...
You asked.
I replied.

If you don't want honesty then just quietly slip away..temporarily or otherwise.
Dont hold up a big ' kick me ' sign and then whine when people oblige.

I will leave you in peace. Or what ever passes for peace

:namaste:
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby JKhedrup » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:57 pm

Greg,

I think you function well here, despite our disagreements on the Islam issue (which, though I disagreed, I hope I always did politely).

Secondly, I completely understand how you feel. When I was moderating here if I did something people disagreed with there would always be a few who targeted my personally, usually my robes "it is a disgrace to your robes for you to voice such an opinion", as if ordination should be expected to make me superhuman, omniscient and delusion-free! (Recently someone also approached me in the street asking why HHDL didn't oppose human rights problems in Burma. When I said there was a statement on his website and in the news they lost it on me completely- one of our fellow DW posters who I was having coffee with witnessed the whole thing!- but that's another story)

It is not an easy job being a moderator at Dharma Wheel and Greg invested a great deal of time, often dealing with the most contentious issues. So I, for one, would like to say thanks for the effort and enjoy your well-earned break! Even if people disagree with Greg's style, try to reflect on the fact that we aren't always the easiest group to moderate.
A foolish man proclaims his qualifications,
A wise man keeps them secret within.
A straw floats on the surface of water,
But a precious gem placed upon it sinks to the depths
-Sakya Pandita
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:58 pm

Simon E. wrote:If you really think that my response was about 'flippant' remarks, or that my reply was an expression of some personal vendetta, and that my attitude towards you is not shared widely by many who no longer post on this forum, then you are not only carrying a whole load of aggression..a fact which is well known, but you are naif.
And therein I suspect lies much of the problem. You see yourself as having made a few flippant remarks a long time ago. The reality is that the number of eyebrows that shot skywards when you were made a mod would amount to a forest...Just weeks before you had performed one of your 'toys out of the pram' routines and then crawled back sheepishly.
Well...
You asked.
I replied.

If you don't want honesty then just quietly slip away..temporarily or otherwise.
Dont hold up a big ' kick me ' sign and then whine when people oblige.

I will leave you in peace. Or what ever passes for peace
Now that is a tragic outburst. I'm sad to hear you feel that way. Now that you are done can you step aside and let the next one in line put their boot in? Thanks.

By the way, don't take any time out to analyse your role in the situation, just heap it all onto me. Did I happen to mention scapegoating in my opening post? I do believe I did.
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby plwk » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Once, Atula and his companions numbering five hundred, wishing to listen to words of Dhamma, went to Thera Revata.

The Thera however was very aloof like a lion; he did not say anything to them. They were very much dissatisfied and so they went to Thera Sariputta.
When Thera Sariputta learned why they had come, he expounded exhaustively on the Abhidhamma.
He also was not to their liking, and they grumbled that Thera Sariputta had been too lengthy and too profound.
Next, Atula and his party approached Thera Ananda.
Thera Ananda expounded to them the bare essentials of the Dhamma. This time, they remarked that Thera Ananda had been too brief and too sketchy.

Finally they came to the Buddha and said to him,
"Venerable Sir, we have come to listen to your teaching. We have been to other teachers before we come here, but we are not satisfied with any of them.
Thera Revata did not bother to teach us and he just kept silent; Thera Sariputta was too exhaustive and the Dhamma he taught us was too difficult for us.
As for Thera Ananda, he was too brief and too sketchy. We do not like any of their discourses."

To them the Buddha said, "My disciples, blaming others is not something new. There is no one in this world who is never blamed; people would blame even a king, or even a Buddha. To be blamed or to be praised by a fool is of no consequence; one is truly blamed only when he is blamed by a wise man, and truly praised only when praised by a wise man."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
It is not new, O Atula! It has always been done from ancient times.
They blame one who is silent, they blame one who speaks much, they blame one who speaks little.
There is no one in this world who is not blamed.

There never has been, there never will be, nor is there now, anyone who is always blamed or always praised.
If the wise praise him day after day, knowing him to be truly faultless, wise and endowed with knowledge and virtue, who would blame him, who is like a nikkha of pure gold?
The devas praise him; he is praised even by the great Brahmas.


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Re: Taking Leave

Postby rachmiel » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:02 pm

Greg,

After initially doubting your fairness -- because you ended several threads I started -- I ended up feeling you were quite fair, after a few pms with you.

Imo what you do well as moderator is: Take clear decisive actions for what you see as the good of Dharma Wheel, respond quickly and fairly to grievances and pms.

What doesn't work so well for me is what I perceive to be a clinical brusqueness in some of your postings. Your tone comes off dismissive at times, and I don't think this serves anyone/thing very well: you, the poster you are responding to, the topic, or Dharma Wheel.

But overall, I have come to respect and (to some extent) fear you. Not sure if that's what you want?
gone gone gone
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby zerwe » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:13 pm

Thank you Greg for your generosity in serving as a moderator.
Please come back soon.
Shaun :anjali:
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:37 pm

Thanks Greg for your work as a moderator and hope to see you back. Most of the controversies in question have been around Mahayana concepts and issues which I am not very familiar with including gyalpo, DC, Chnn, etc. so I have had to defer to the team here in most matters and have not been available for any appeals. (I am a Theravadin, but like the Mahayana very much too)
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby Ayu » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:12 pm

Image

Thank you for your work.
Because, if our mothers, who have been kind to us
From beginningless time, are suffering,
What can we do with (just) our own happiness?
From 10th of 37 Bodhisattva Practices
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby PorkChop » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:42 pm

Sounds like you need a breather.
Moderating's a thankless job, but it's really not worth it if it makes you upset.
Thanks for the work you've put into the site.
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Re: Taking Leave

Postby deff » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:54 pm

take care Greg :heart:

may everything be auspicious for you :namaste:

thanks for volunteering you time here :smile:
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